Episode 263: Defusing Anxious Thoughts with Shit Talking Shrinks
Transcript
00:00.23
Kelli Walker
Hey guys welcome to not another anxiety show I'm your host Kelly Walker and joining me today is guests Pauly Seagull in Victoria Aaron hey ladies
00:10.48
Victoria Aron
Um, hi truly thanks for having us.
00:11.93
Paulina Siegel
Hi. We're so happy to be here. Yeah I mean a not another anxiety talk. We need to talk about anxiety all the time because it's per because it's pervasive.
00:15.92
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah,. Thanks, thanks for taking the time. Yeah, ah I know it's. Ah, especially since you know the big old Pandemic. It's it is pervasive I Like your word choice but you know before we dive in, Do you ladies mind sharing a little bit about yourselves. I mean you both have your own podcast to write your co-hosts of shit talking shrinks. It's amazing. Um, but yeah, can you tell us.
00:31.20
Victoria Aron
He.
00:35.82
Paulina Siegel
Are.
00:43.19
Victoria Aron
Is here if.
00:49.24
Kelli Walker
A little bit about yourselves.
00:52.19
Victoria Aron
Paulina you go first I'm oh okay because I was gonna say I'm anxious right now from my new supplement. Yeah, go ahead.
00:52.30
Paulina Siegel
Hit it v oh okay I can go I can go um so hi everyone I'm Paulina Siegel um
00:57.60
Kelli Walker
But.
01:06.39
Paulina Siegel
Aside from shit talking shrinks which we can talk about I own a private practice in Colorado and Illinois called courageous past counseling I kind of forget that I still run another business other than the work we do Victoria um, but it specializes in gen z and millennials.
01:17.25
Victoria Aron
Is is.
01:24.33
Paulina Siegel
Um, so that's 15 to 43? Anyone's struggling with anxiety depression trauma ocd so I do a lot of trauma and Ocd work. Um, and then you know as clinicians we really see the huge life transitions and just struggles with I don't know. Dealing with the stressors that come our way so it's awesome I love my private practice I get to see like you know 25 clients a week and they're all magical snowflakes.
01:46.29
Kelli Walker
Ah, just.
01:51.69
Victoria Aron
Is.
01:51.89
Kelli Walker
I was gonna say you couldn't pay me to repeat my twenty s that transition was was something 20 think they're going to be a cakewag. Yeah yeah.
02:00.18
Victoria Aron
Um, ah especially today like being a 20 year old right now I couldn't I couldn't do it. Um, no.
02:02.47
Paulina Siegel
Yep.
02:11.74
Kelli Walker
Yeah I can't can't imagine Facebook barely came out when I was 20 you now I think ah I'm like elder millennial like that comedian that calls herself I'm you know an elder Phil and oh.
02:16.79
Victoria Aron
Right? right.
02:24.91
Victoria Aron
Yes, um, hi everybody I'm Victoria yeah I'm Victoria Aaron um I too have my own practice. It's called radical recovery I practice in Chicago mainly but I also travel all around because.
02:27.51
Kelli Walker
Yeah, what about you? Victoria.
02:39.51
Victoria Aron
I'm a crisis interventionist. So I do interventions I do sober transports but my real like the meat and potatoes of my practice is that I'm a concierge case manager and Coach. So I work with a very small number of people very intensely. And basically help them rebuild their lives I'm a licensed clinical social worker a certified Addictions counselor and also I'm getting my certification in sex addiction Therapy. So I ah work with people who are you know struggling I was about to say the f word but I didn't and so for that.
03:08.48
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, so fing struggle. Yeah because that is sometimes how struggle feels I'm f and struggling struggling does not do it justice Sometimes right I mean it just doesn't.
03:11.82
Victoria Aron
I am impressed by myself. Ah.
03:18.21
Victoria Aron
Yeah, no, yes yeah sometime The explicit content is the only way to describe how hard things are but that was a good one on me.
03:25.27
Kelli Walker
Us and.
03:28.76
Kelli Walker
Yeah, that was good of clapping I'm clapping for you can hear it I'll do it lightly not to talk but now and you guys you started this year right? shit talking shrinks.
03:35.54
Paulina Siegel
Bravo A.
03:36.40
Victoria Aron
Yes, thank I'm being very mindful with you all.
03:46.21
Kelli Walker
Can you what? what prompted you or what? Um, what was the driving force behind starting this podcast together. But.
03:53.83
Victoria Aron
Paulina Siegel
03:56.12
Kelli Walker
Ah, there's no I get to blame. Ah.
03:57.29
Paulina Siegel
Ah, um, so so twenty Twenty pandemic hits and everyone's you know, starting a podcast and also just trying to recalibrate their lives and it became a dream of mine to start a podcast. But I could never find a co-host. That was my my perfect fit until I met Victoria and then it was like this no brainer where I was like you pointed to I want you? So I said to her very casually hey do you want to start a podcast together.
04:14.30
Kelli Walker
Yeah, 2
04:21.22
Victoria Aron
Who.
04:21.43
Kelli Walker
You right? there.
04:30.32
Paulina Siegel
And in Victoria fashion. She's like fuck. Yeah yeah, I'll do that I broke I broke the bubble so she can push the explicit button.
04:34.29
Victoria Aron
Oh there, you go you did it. You dropped the f. Ah.
04:38.58
Kelli Walker
Um, we were worried about Victoria we were worried about Victor Victoria you have been. You have been freed. You've been freed. Yeah.
04:44.77
Paulina Siegel
Um, you've been freed but I look in you know in her her typical fashion. She's like yeah sure I'll do it Whatever you want and I was really like no I mean I'm I'm serious about this like I think you could create a really powerful.
04:46.22
Victoria Aron
Ah I'm free.
04:58.70
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
05:02.20
Paulina Siegel
Podcast that's going to help people but bring humor and levity to the human experience into really hard mental health topics that that are painful for so many people and and and so we launched in January and so we're you know three months in we're newbies but like.
05:07.82
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
05:13.37
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
05:21.44
Paulina Siegel
I mean we're doing. We're doing great I have to. It's a little self promo. We're 2% top 2% globally of podcasts. So it's insane.
05:27.97
Kelli Walker
Beautiful when it's when it's authentic content right? and it's and we're and we're being human. You know there's something about being being human and especially during the pandemic right? like podcasts were a way to feel connected when we couldn't connect.
05:29.48
Victoria Aron
Which is insane. Yeah, but.
05:45.23
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah.
05:47.97
Kelli Walker
Physically it was you know who shake it off dark times. But.
05:49.98
Victoria Aron
Well Kelly I've been practicing mindfulness for 11 years and 1 of the things that I feel like has like my practice has exploded in the last I'd say ten months like really I don't know what's happening but it's just allowed me. To be so authentic and I would not have I I don't think I could be doing what we're doing right now if my mindfulness practice wasn't where it's at you know.
06:20.41
Kelli Walker
Absolutely and I know that's something um you know Pauly you had me on your guys a shared podcast talking shrinks last week and um, you know we talked about having you guys on today and one of the things you mentioned that would be worth talking about. Um, our strategies for working with anxious thoughts specifically strategies from act or acceptance commitment therapy which um, we know incorporates a lot of mindfulness and we've talked about a bit on the show and is honestly like a foundational pillar and. Coaching that I do with clients and whatnot and it's so important. But um, yeah, you had mentioned maybe let's let's share and talk about and maybe we can um even give like our own personal examples of like walking or working through anxious thoughts and using some of these like. Act techniques. But before we dive in and can you remind us again. We've talked about it on the show a bit. Um, you know my clients will be familiar with it. My beautiful, wonderful clients. But maybe you guys can remind us like what's the premise behind act or acceptance and commitment therapy if you could, but.
07:27.98
Victoria Aron
Are.
07:30.47
Paulina Siegel
It.
07:30.71
Kelli Walker
Sum it up right? I mean I know there's textbooks and textbooks and textbooks. But if you could sum it up and repackage it in your way. What would you say is like the overarching premise.
07:40.12
Paulina Siegel
For me Act is has has two foundational pillars. The first is it's learning to create psychological flexibility which means being able to.
07:52.30
Kelli Walker
Yeah.
07:58.00
Paulina Siegel
In the discomfort that life brings move through discomfort that comes your way and then cultivating acceptance around that that's inevitable. Life is filled with discomfort and pain and you know as the saying goes suffering is optional. Um, but it really allows people to learn the mechanisms to move through the hard things that come our way and have that acceptance that it's okay, we're going to get to the other side of it and we can open up to that and see the beauty. That's the first pillar second pillar is values living by your values. The things that you um, prioritize that you um that are deeply meaningful in your life that bring fulfillment find out what that is and every single day dedicate. A. Part of yourself to that value or set of values and that's that's how I really understand act and teach it to my clients.
08:58.35
Kelli Walker
Yeah, beautifully said what about anything you would add Victoria yeah, you know it reminds me of like when I was first introduced to act it was ten years ago for both you know, um.
08:59.79
Victoria Aron
Um, no I think she said it perfect.
09:13.12
Kelli Walker
Personal reasons because I was struggling with anxiety and panic attacks and there was a lot of like that secondary suffering or dirty pain or whatever you want to call it. Um and I and I was a nurse and one of the things I Really loved about act is it was like designed to be accessible to so many different types of people right? Especially we've seen this during.
09:20.16
Victoria Aron
Are.
09:32.32
Kelli Walker
Um, and directly after the pandemic where there's such a shortage at least in our state of um therapists you know there people were you know and where I was working they stopped even referring patients to therapists because the waitlist was six months nine months a year. It was so. Insane and our state is not well known for good mental health services anyway. But um I think what I loved about act like working as a nurse is like this is something that was designed for not just therapists. But other people that are you know, um, encountering those that are struggling.
09:53.36
Paulina Siegel
Yeah.
10:07.43
Kelli Walker
With anxiety with addiction with trauma with you know, languishing and sadness and all the other stuff that it means to be human so that so that we can all learn it because the benefits um that we that we gain from practicing mindfulness and values-based living. Go. Go a long way and I think you know long story short I remember picking up the illustrated happiness trap by Dr Russ Harris really over a decade ago again for personal and professional reasons. And um I think what you know the quote that really stood out to me and I was like huh. Really, it was something along the lines that unpleasant, um, unpleasant, painful thoughts and emotions are part of healthy psychological functioning and that really challenged this ingrained belief that I had at the time. Um, that. You know, negative emotions are bad or indicative that there's something wrong with me or a call to action every single time I don't know about you guys, but part of being you know an elder millennial is I heard a lot growing up like smile. You know like it was sort of like that. The.
11:06.68
Paulina Siegel
Yeah.
11:19.54
Victoria Aron
Um, ah.
11:21.55
Kelli Walker
First generation positives that like just think positive all the time be positive all the time just sweep those painful emotions under the rugs to put those away like just tuck those up and and pack them away and you know, um.
11:28.43
Victoria Aron
Put those away. Yeah.
11:38.19
Kelli Walker
Yeah, that that really sort of challenged this ingrained belief belief I had um I don't know how was it for you guys when you first learned to act was it like in alignment with what you believed? What did it challenge what you grew up with what.
11:43.23
Victoria Aron
Who.
11:55.27
Kelli Walker
What was the case for you.
11:56.23
Paulina Siegel
I Think for? yeah, no, no, no please.
11:58.70
Victoria Aron
So act. Yeah,, go Ahead. No okay, fine gladly. Um, so it's like um I feel like when I was in grad school is when we first learned about act and I had this like really cool professor who. Had this amazing clinician come in with like a mohawk and she was so epic and dope and she taught us act and I'm like a very bad student because I always fight my professors I'm like I'm smarter than you I'm better than you and so this is why I can't learn anything.
12:30.42
Kelli Walker
And.
12:32.97
Victoria Aron
But I actually listened to her I listened to her and everything we like did this really cool I Forget it's one of the act you know, ah experientials where like with like a bunch of no cards I Forget what it is You would know better. Um, but I was so invested and engaged in it and I.
12:50.90
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
12:52.97
Victoria Aron
Realize that act feels very inherent in me like that's I think part of why it's a big part of what I do is because personally it's how I've been trained. You know it's the only way I've stayed sober for 11 years almost eleven years it's the only way that i. Got through some of the hardest times of my life and it's just this thing that's I feel like a part of my values and I never seen it so like clearly you know.
13:20.28
Kelli Walker
Um, of you? Yeah, beautiful. Yeah yeah.
13:27.25
Paulina Siegel
Yeah I actually do when I think about who you are Victoria you are very inherently act like you roll through pain you create acceptance for the hard things that have happened you sit in your discomfort when you need to.
13:37.90
Victoria Aron
He.
13:43.62
Victoria Aron
Um, that's what what it is? yeah.
13:45.35
Paulina Siegel
And you do live by your values that is that is all act is is all of that.
13:48.37
Kelli Walker
Act. Yeah, and you know I I think when I'm wondering what you guys would say to this because I think and I'm I'm thinking about where I was a decade ago or where some people tuning in might be and I think when we're having. Really debilitating anxiety Ocd or panic attacks. It can be really hard to accept that difficult emotions are you know and thoughts are a normal part of life because we feel so limited and debilitated in that moment and I'm wondering like. What you can kind of say to that or speak to that I know for me. Um I Think what I didn't realize initially was that a lot of the suffering I was experiencing in the worst of my panic attacks like when I was completely agoraphobic and homebound and like not leaving my. Really my bedroom if I didn't have to for for months I Think what I didn't realize was that a lot of the suffering I was experiencing right? We kind of have alluded to that like suffering is is optional. You know and again it's like based on you know, depending what resources. A lot of times suffering is innocent I should say and for me suffering was innocent I was kind of doing the best I could with what I had but I didn't realize that a lot of my suffering was just coming from the limited ways in which I knew how to cope at that time with difficult emotions like yeah, really anxiety panic like panic I mean it probably.
15:07.76
Victoria Aron
Um, and.
15:23.45
Kelli Walker
Tricked me a dozen times before I've really started to even you know entertain that maybe this isn't a heart attack. It was so intense like just the intensity um like her whole body's on fire and yeah so I'm wondering what you guys would like say to that sometimes this idea of accepting depending where we are.
15:30.65
Paulina Siegel
Her hair.
15:34.95
Victoria Aron
Right.
15:43.23
Kelli Walker
Um, in our journey can feel like a really tall order.
15:45.69
Paulina Siegel
Well here's here's the truth acceptance doesn't mean you like it and I think that's where the word is deceptive acceptance comes off as that means I have to like it and I have to embrace it I have to feel some sort of positive response. That's not what acceptance is.
15:52.28
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah so deceptive feel a certain way right? Yeah, a certain way. Yeah.
15:55.35
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah.
16:05.64
Paulina Siegel
Acceptance is opening up to this is my truth and this is the reality right now in this moment and I don't have to like it yet I can open up to it and I know that it's temporary because all of our emotional discomfort is temporary.
16:09.58
Victoria Aron
We.
16:09.96
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah.
16:16.30
Kelli Walker
Yeah.
16:18.56
Victoria Aron
Um.
16:23.40
Paulina Siegel
And so in act there's a technique called expansion which is part of you know the the ability to increase psychological flexibility when we're facing adversity or challenges and expansion is really really simple. It's when you feel uncomfortable if you can lean into it open it up. To it that inherently it's going to diffuse and pass because it's a temporary state and the way I like to describe acceptance is like okay. If I have here's my glass of water if I put red ah 2 drops of red dye into this water. What would happen.
17:00.34
Victoria Aron
Term red.
17:02.33
Kelli Walker
It's going to turn pink red probably red being difficult.
17:04.12
Paulina Siegel
Yeah I turn red and then if I took this water and I transferred it into a fish bowl. What would happen it get lighter. It would dilute and then if I took the fish bowl and I put it into you like this.
17:15.19
Kelli Walker
Um, it would get lighter delute. Yeah, right, get later and I love Science Keep going keep going.
17:16.53
Victoria Aron
Dilute I'm loving this game by the way take you feels good.
17:23.65
Paulina Siegel
Like this and if I took. And if I took the fish bowl water and I put it in a bathtubb. What would happen me. Maybe there's a faint thing and if I took the bathtub water and I put it in the Ocean. We All know the answer. It'd be done. That's all expansion is that's it.
17:31.44
Kelli Walker
Yeah, probably be clear right? like you wouldn't even see.
17:37.83
Victoria Aron
Maybe? ah.
17:38.79
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, we all know the answer a for the day That's yeah, that's beautiful.
17:44.16
Victoria Aron
Love the container. Yeah I think also Kelly though like 1 of the things that you said which is something I've learned doing you know this crisis work right? is that.
17:46.24
Paulina Siegel
The more I open up the more I lean in the more I expand we diffuse through the pain.
17:50.36
Kelli Walker
Beautiful.
18:01.92
Victoria Aron
In moments that you're talking about where you feel like your body's on fire. You're in a very acute state right? So it's like flooded right? and right and and in the crisis work that I do I'm not going to say.
18:05.20
Kelli Walker
Yes, flooded completely flooded fight or flight things so things feel so inaccessible in that moment. Yeah.
18:20.21
Kelli Walker
Yes.
18:20.49
Victoria Aron
To my client imagine we are moving you know from a glass to an ocean. It's not. It's not appropriate right? But like there's a there's a moment where the acuteness dissipates where we can actually talk through it so that they can utilize that later but there's I mean these are real.
18:25.24
Kelli Walker
Yeah, right. Um, yeah, yeah.
18:40.54
Victoria Aron
Disorders right? And that's why I think older generations like the okay Boomer generation really struggles with you know the mental health movement because there you know there's a lot of like pull your yourselflf off on our boot scraps figure it out. You know.
18:54.62
Kelli Walker
Boot straps. Oh God Yeah, if I have a dollar for every time I've said pull yourself by your bootstraps on my podcast. Theyd be a rich lady you know, but yeah, exactly there's that.
18:58.86
Victoria Aron
Right? It's like figure it out. It's like well in that moment like you're unable to that's why we need intervention. That's why we need help. There's just no, yeah yeah.
19:06.70
Kelli Walker
Unable Yeah, right? That's why we need support exactly? Yeah, No thank you for saying that because I just think it's worth you know, alluding to and you know I know for me like flying is something where I can get really. Elevated and it's like okay at that time probably I'm not going to use certain especially cognitive techniques like at that point and it just I think it helps to know when to kind of be flexible or switch gears or whatever because so often sometimes we'll give something to go and it's not necessarily our shortcoming or that we're Failing. It's just like.
19:30.30
Victoria Aron
Um, right.
19:41.49
Kelli Walker
Hey this isn't like a break glass in case of emergency. This is like a daily practice. You know when we're on ah and a 4 or 5 out of 10 or whatever something that we can I always like to allude to like you think of pilots you know they do so many simulations on the ground before they ever get in the air and like.
19:48.57
Victoria Aron
Right.
20:01.80
Kelli Walker
This for me, you know, like practicing different diffusion techniques which we should you know get into in a second here but practicing different diffusion techniques or expansion like you talked about like kind of dropping into my body that that was a practice I started slowly. Simply and definitely didn't go for it when I was at like a 10 out of 10 Yeah yeah, So yeah, yeah,, let's do it. Let's let's talk. Let's talk to fusion. Let's Diffuse. Um.
20:18.92
Victoria Aron
Is a is it.
20:22.39
Paulina Siegel
Yeah, yeah, um I was just going to bring up diffusion.
20:31.42
Victoria Aron
Let's diffuse more.
20:35.75
Kelli Walker
So maybe it'll be helpful if I kind of give an example and we work work our way through it. You can you can work me through it. Okay, here's my anxious thought because we all have them and it's part of the human bag. So here's an anxious thought that comes up for me how about something along the lines.
20:42.60
Victoria Aron
Is he.
20:42.10
Paulina Siegel
Yeah.
20:55.70
Kelli Walker
Of oh my God What if my business fails and I can't do the only thing in the world that I've ever genuinely loved doing and felt such a strong sense of purpose right? like immediately that thought evokes emotions I'm constricted.
21:03.35
Victoria Aron
Um.
21:14.77
Kelli Walker
I Want to get caught here's what I want to do you know my instinct especially before these practices would be to like debate This thought I want to get into a chess match like I want to go back and forth like well you know. You've had a business for 10 years. Why would it suddenly fail and then there'd be a countertough right? like um, oh but what if you're just old and irrelevant now and then there'd be another counterthought like but you keep up with continuing education and constant learning. It could see how it can just go on forever if I let it and.
21:47.29
Victoria Aron
Are.
21:50.77
Kelli Walker
Sometimes in the past like an hour would pass and I'm like where am I Who am I completely disconnected not only from my surroundings but myself right? and so how do we work through a thought like that in a way that um.
21:58.61
Paulina Siegel
Here.
22:07.34
Kelli Walker
Not only like manages the anxiety but allows us to like really rewire our neural pathways so that we can move through this like you said with a little more agility resiliency not getting caught up in the suffering right? The back and forth the pain that comes from that. Back and forth match.
22:29.62
Paulina Siegel
I Feel like yeah Victorian I need buzzers where we can like buzz in um, are you cool? Are you cool if I answer this and then you'll add. Okay.
22:30.91
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, this is.
22:31.27
Victoria Aron
Yeah.
22:37.41
Victoria Aron
I Want you to take it away bab.
22:41.99
Paulina Siegel
This one this one I feel really passionate about as an as an Ocd Clinician because this comes up a lot so part of what's so powerful about act is that we don't engage in the ping pong match.
22:45.94
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah.
22:58.91
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
23:00.18
Paulina Siegel
Okay, so like when that thought pops up of oh my gosh. My business could fail randomly in that moment act would say can you acknowledge it for what it is. It's purely letters words and sentences that make up this thought and it's a story and the brain.
23:03.64
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
23:17.55
Paulina Siegel
Will present stories and narrativeism in tapes every single day but you well that's a diffusion technique. Yeah, but you have to you have to not play and engage with it.
23:19.67
Kelli Walker
I know I might say I notice I'm having the thought right notice I'm having the thought.
23:32.35
Kelli Walker
Right.
23:34.44
Paulina Siegel
I'll give this example so if my dog walked into the room right now I have two choices I could acknowledge she walked in and immediately go back to what I'm doing right now which is being part of this amazing podcast or she could walk in and I could immediately play with her and rub her belly and give her lots of attention. It's the same thing with our thoughts.
23:52.28
Kelli Walker
Ah, yeah.
23:53.78
Paulina Siegel
You can notice that thought oh my brain's telling me the story of I'm my business is going to fail I can notice that thought and immediately come back to what I'm doing or I can engage in the ping pong match which is.
23:59.84
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
24:09.73
Paulina Siegel
Countering it and justifying it and wrestling with it which serves nobody. So I guess to answer your question more concisely act is about noticing what it truly is which is just a thought letters words and sentences in our brain. And we get to decide how much power or engagement we have with that thought and then noticing and coming back to what's happening in the present moment.
24:29.26
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, fearful.
24:36.71
Kelli Walker
Yeah, Absolutely yeah for and for me I don't know what works for you guys or what what you use but you know for me when that comes up what that might really look like in practice and maybe you guys have examples with like your own sort of um. You know, evocative thoughts or sticky thoughts or or whatever. But for me I know when that comes up. You know there's There's even even a small flood of like who you know urgency important like this is. Threatening seemingly threatening one of my biggest values.. Whatever and there's a real call to action and for me, you know again with practice it sort of looks like oh man, it's here my shoulders drop. That's what acceptance looks like for me usually it's f all right? That's what it is right Now. It's here. Okay I notice I'm having this thought and and sometimes that's just enough I kind of notice I'm having the thought and I just go back to what I'm doing especially if it's something you know it's usually easier if it's something that's important to me like if I'm jumping on the trampoline with my kids or Like. Um, out with friends or biking or whatever it might be but um, yeah, So sometimes that's that's all it takes when it gets a little trickier. What does it look like for you guys, right? like when this thought comes up and you know it'd be really nice if it was oh, It's just the thought end of story.
26:01.97
Kelli Walker
Moving on. But but what happens when it's like but what of the what I think one of the stickiest points for all of us is what if this thought is true. What if this thought is right? What if right? It's like a siren singing to us when it gets a little trickier. What does it look like for you guys like what.
26:11.99
Paulina Siegel
Ah, ah her.
26:21.55
Kelli Walker
Techniques or diffusion techniques or what? what do you like to lean into.
26:24.30
Victoria Aron
So I have a very strong belief that I cannot fix my thinking with my thinking so like cognitive behavior. Yeah, like cognitive Behavioral Therapy does not work for me like to be like like it actually just increases my.
26:31.26
Kelli Walker
Yeah, except it's like putting fire out with fires. Yes, ah me neither.
26:43.35
Victoria Aron
Fucking Insanity Oh ah, yeah, increases me in sanity I Know it's it's there. It's already there I Ah yeah.
26:45.90
Kelli Walker
Yep, where the E's already the E's already on there for explicit. It's all right? You're free run wild but agreed I'm glad run wild I'm glad you're speaking to this because so many of us, especially with anxiety are told to do cbt and it's like digging a deeper hole. Really, it's.
26:59.71
Victoria Aron
Well yeah, and like from from my like you know personal training as somebody who you know uses the 12 steps right? right? But like somebody that uses the 12 steps and like has an issue with my thinking right? My perception is warped.
27:02.60
Kelli Walker
Part.
27:09.90
Kelli Walker
It's a gold quote unquote Standard right? Cbt and.
27:19.43
Victoria Aron
And and and people with mental illness I think feel the same way. It's like for you to tell me to think my way through something my mind is a dark neighbor is a scary dark neighborhood at night that you don't want to walk through alone so it's like this is not where we go I move into my body to diffuse. So when the only.
27:34.59
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, me too.
27:38.92
Victoria Aron
Real sense today in my life where I have a sense of urgency around my thoughts is when my biggest values are threatened so like 1 of the one of the things I can really relate to 1 of the things I actually did a fear inventory on it was you know my.
27:44.37
Kelli Walker
Right.
27:54.34
Victoria Aron
1 of my biggest values is being in partnership with somebody so like having an intimate partner and one of my biggest fears and something that was going on in my head was what if you're alone for the rest of your life. What if you're alone you know? and so what I would do through that if I was told to think my way through that I wouldn't be here.
28:04.12
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah.
28:12.70
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah, yeah, 2 body now.
28:13.42
Victoria Aron
Right now I walk to walking is my diffusion I have to get into my body and being active is the most critical cornerstone of that for me so I don't care if I'm in a session I don't care if I'm with a client. Or if something comes up and I can't get away from this like truly debilitate hold right? I'll say I'll say you know what? I just started feeling really anxious. Can we go for a walk and they'll usually be like yeah and I'm like.
28:35.55
Kelli Walker
That hold right? like yeah, it's like it's like a chokehold.
28:45.84
Kelli Walker
Beautiful.
28:51.52
Victoria Aron
Sick because I can't I can't do my work if I'm in that place I can't be present for my friends when I'm in that place I can't be present for my family So that's that's what I do as I move.
28:54.48
Kelli Walker
And that fits. Yeah.
29:01.31
Kelli Walker
I Love it and I I relate to that like dropping into my body is just like often with movement because it just it mobilizes that that literally that fight or flight response that goes on when I have a threatening thought right like I. Like like I'll jump. Ah again I'll jump on the trampoline with my kids like I just try to shift into movement and not to get away I think that's like a really important distinction. It's not.. It's more like a healthy refocusing than a mindless distraction which I know can make all the difference right? like it's I acknowledge what's happening. Try to bring some compassion to myself hold space and then again like dropping into my body I know can be really helpful for me whether it's movement or sometimes breath work is enough or like different somatic movements or exercises or things like that help me again, not escape.
29:51.76
Paulina Siegel
And.
29:56.78
Kelli Walker
Pain but it brings me back to here because so often those thoughts want to pull me to the past or bring me to the future and when I'm in my body. It's a solid reminder like all right I'm here and it becomes like a really nice resting pay place or like a refuge really? yeah.
30:10.89
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah.
30:13.32
Paulina Siegel
It's so interesting when I think about the options of dropping out of your mind. So Victoria mentioned her body for me. It's dropping into my environment my external surrounding like and using my five senses.
30:24.30
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, you.
30:28.30
Paulina Siegel
So like if my I have an anxious thought in the morning of my gosh I'm trying to think of an anxious thought.
30:36.65
Victoria Aron
Um, like I don't want to do this today I don't want to do my job today.
30:39.63
Paulina Siegel
Yeah, yeah, or well I don't have that thought that often I like what I do mine Mine is more of like am I going to get everything done My my my anxiety is a lot about performance.
30:44.79
Victoria Aron
Good for you.
30:49.49
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah, per for yeah.
30:51.88
Victoria Aron
Um.
30:55.14
Paulina Siegel
So for me, it's like when I wake up, it's like oh my God am I going to be able to get all this shit done and if I don't That's going to be really bad. So there's some sort of consequence that I'm perseverating on if I don't get it all done and it's like in that moment I'm fused.
31:00.70
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah.
31:06.52
Kelli Walker
Yeah.
31:11.32
Paulina Siegel
So we're we're talking about the technique of deffusion. But really, what's happening before you use. The diffusion technique is you're fused. You're attached to an unhelpful thought that's not serving you and I could go on and on about how to decipher between a helpful thought or or an unhelpful thought but to make it more concise.
31:19.10
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
31:30.81
Paulina Siegel
If that thought is evoking emotional discomfort. It's probably not a thought that serves you. It's probably not a thought that's helping you in that moment and so when I have that thought of I'm not going to get everything done and that's going to be bad. My body clenches up and I feel anxious and my throat's tight.
31:36.77
Kelli Walker
Um, right? yeah.
31:49.14
Paulina Siegel
And I'm having this physiological response so in that moment I would notice oh I'm having the I'm not going to get it done story like I imagine my brain pulling out a book from a bookshelf and I have a million books on this bookshelf and they're all different stories about how.
31:56.38
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
32:05.80
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah.
32:08.84
Paulina Siegel
I'm going to fail or I'm inadequate or something bad's going to happen and it's just my brain pulling out that story going and beginning to open it up and read it and so I acknowledge it for what it is. It's just made up shit my brain's coming up with and then I pause and I drop into my five senses. I scan what's happening in my room I notice different things as if it's the first time I'm ever seeing a refrigerator or like a sink like that sounds crazy. But I really do like I'll I'll pretend like I'm an alien and I'll be like oh my god this is the first time I've ever seen this thing and I'll study. It.
32:38.92
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
32:45.97
Paulina Siegel
And then I'll move to my sense of touch and I'll walk around the room and I'll touch various things and close my eyes and really feel it on my fingertips and I'll smell whatever's in the room I Just five senses is a really easy way to regulate your nervous system.
33:01.99
Kelli Walker
And to bring us back right? The refuge of of the present moment. There really is a refuge like if we're not caught in our thought in our thoughts like are are you know or the result of our like you know the emotional the evocative emotional response that is often the result of um. Sometimes first from a thought sometimes not. But um, yeah I like that one too especially be it like I kind of like the dichotomy because I think sometimes if we're feeling a little panicked or if we're feeling overwhelm in our nervous system. Um. Sometimes sort of like that interoception like dropping into our body can feel a little overwhelming so it's kind of nice to be able to ground ourselves or come back to now um by engaging in our environment and something outside our body needs to have as an option I know for me if you know my body feels like an overwhelming place. Something about closing my eyes because often sight will start to feel a little overwhelming. My vision will get a little squirrelly if I'm you know in that fight or flight State So hearing often will help me kind of come back to now and I close my eyes and you know, especially if it's spring and there's birds out somewhere out there.
33:57.82
Paulina Siegel
Yeah here.
34:09.39
Paulina Siegel
Yeah, you know it's interesting. So I'm a big five sense person because Victoria and I talked about this on an episode that you know animals when they escape a predator. They'll use their 5 senses to recalibrate their nervous system and we're no different than the.
34:11.39
Kelli Walker
Yeah.
34:28.30
Paulina Siegel
Gazelle and you know all these african animals that are always getting attacked um like literally like we're the same as that and I used to keep wartheads in my office in Colorado so that when when someone has is having a panic attack I give them a warthead.
34:29.66
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, yeah, yeah.
34:34.90
Victoria Aron
Ah.
34:44.60
Victoria Aron
You mean warhead? Yeah yeah, no I was like what what are you talking? you mean this hour candy. It's a warhead if war.
34:45.15
Kelli Walker
Are you are You are you do me warheads like the candy.
34:46.29
Paulina Siegel
And using oh is it not called a warthead.
34:54.29
Kelli Walker
Um, you mean the sour candy that if you eat too much of them. They'll actually like burst the taste buds of I'm near burner I don't know what's in there what warheads warheads. Yeah yeah.
34:58.81
Paulina Siegel
Burn your tongue. Okay so I thought they were wartheads with the T got it. So it's warheads they work great for panic attacks. They're great for panic attacks.
35:05.65
Victoria Aron
I'm obsessed.
35:11.92
Kelli Walker
And love it I like that grounding.
35:13.10
Victoria Aron
Ah, yeah, they're so good.
35:17.54
Paulina Siegel
And it like forces the body to be like really connected to your sense of taste and yeah, that's all I'm trying to say is use your 5 senses.
35:23.70
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
35:23.26
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah, your use your wardheads I mean so here's what's amazing I think ah the the best like the best thing.
35:26.86
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, is your use your wardheads and um.
35:39.90
Victoria Aron
That's come from my mindfulness practice is that like my head's a liar. You know my head lies to me all the time like if she's not to be trusted and what I found from everybody that I work with and everybody that I know their heads are liars too.
35:50.10
Kelli Walker
Um, isn't.
35:56.81
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
35:56.86
Victoria Aron
Like there is just we're like predisposed to prove some bullshit narrative that we have about ourselves that was instilled in us right? Yes, yeah.
36:01.10
Kelli Walker
That confirmation bias right? This narrative that we pick up God knows how long ago and just innocently keeps getting reinforced. Yeah I know.
36:11.36
Victoria Aron
Right? So it's like I don't trust you so I'm gonna eat a warhead I'm gonna move my body and I'm goingnna I'm Goingnna like look at this shelf like I've never seen a shelf before and then I'm going to be okay.
36:21.77
Paulina Siegel
You can give me all the shit you want. But I swear if you pretend you're an alien and you look at things for the first time.
36:22.20
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah, yeah and I'm good I love.
36:27.35
Victoria Aron
What do you mean? I like I literally am so much and it's the word heads. But I'm so much in agreeance with you I Love being a baby alien and inspecting my inspecting my surroundings. It's the best. It's like mushrooms.
36:31.39
Kelli Walker
And just the wardheads. It's just the wardheads the Alien Yeah yeah, that beginner's mind right? like in mindfulness if you really can come with the beginners mind like what's like psychedelics. Ah.
36:47.66
Victoria Aron
It's like psychedelic I mean it is in a sense. You know that's what that's why that's why so many people love them because you're like what is a tree you know like that is insane. Yeah.
36:49.14
Kelli Walker
You know? yeah.
36:55.26
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah I.
37:00.93
Paulina Siegel
Ah, oh that's good.
37:00.96
Kelli Walker
But this is so beautiful. Yeah, you know? yeah and you know so like when you kind of mentioned. Um, you know when prey outruns a predator like I like you know they kind of recalibrate their five senses and made me think like 1 of the other things they do. Body shake it out. They literally like shake like when a dog shakes off water you know like it's been a long time I studied abroad in Kenya a long time ago because I'm not in my twenty s anymore. But um, you know one of the first things like a Thompson's Gazelle would do like we would see these gazelles and whatnot.
37:19.87
Victoria Aron
I mean.
37:21.45
Paulina Siegel
Um, yeah.
37:27.87
Victoria Aron
Are.
37:36.22
Kelli Walker
Outrun Sheetahs in they're there and they like shake it off and then it's like they just like move on with their day and I'd like to think if they can move on with their day after actually being eaten then I can cultivate this capacity to move on with my day when painful uncomfortable.
37:39.51
Victoria Aron
Yeah.
37:41.84
Paulina Siegel
Yep.
37:50.48
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah.
37:51.48
Paulina Siegel
Um, yeah.
37:55.31
Kelli Walker
Thoughts and and emotions come up. Yeah.
37:56.39
Victoria Aron
Yeah.
37:56.54
Paulina Siegel
Yeah I I really I I want to I don't know how much time we have how much time do we have Kelly because I want to say something to add what great. Okay, so Victoria what you said about the brain being a liar.
38:05.40
Kelli Walker
Um I have I have 8 minutes
38:15.48
Paulina Siegel
It's It's a brilliant point because when we view our thoughts and our stories as hard facts right? We then get entangled in them and they create this emotional uproar. But when we start to view the brain as. It disguises things as the truth. That's the way that I look at it. So It's I like the concept of they're lying or it's lying but more even that it's like it's disguising this story or thought as the truth but it's not really the truth. It's just a costume that the brain wears.
38:32.93
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
38:48.55
Kelli Walker
Um, yeah.
38:51.42
Paulina Siegel
When it presents information and so they're so busy and there's oh like tricky.
38:51.56
Victoria Aron
He.
38:51.69
Kelli Walker
Our brains are so busy making up stories and meaning tricky and it's yeah and it's so yeah, so much is happening under the surface that we don't even recognize and it just looks and feels like fact and I like how you pointed to It's not so much. Okay, is this true I think for someone that has struggled with I know you mentioned that you struggle with Ocd and and I have too and sometimes I would get caught up and but is this thought true I would get so caught up in that and really, it's like okay but is this thought helpful and for me, it helps me discern like is it serving me in this moment.
39:21.64
Paulina Siegel
Ah.
39:30.69
Kelli Walker
Is it in a line with my values like if something's really grabbing me I'm like is this where I want to spend my time like is this genuinely where I want to put my my bandwidth into my very limited bandwidth with like twin five year olds like my nervous system is constantly stimulated and it's like do I want to.
39:44.23
Victoria Aron
While.
39:50.47
Kelli Walker
My precious Bandwidth here is this helpful to me and sort of where where I want to be and so I think that's really worth taking away I'm glad you mentioned it I wanted to make sure it didn't kind of go untouch because so often we get caught is it true. Is it not and that's really just a ping pong match if it's true.
40:04.25
Paulina Siegel
Act Act doesn't give a shit about whether it's true or not. It doesn't matter. Maybe it's true. Maybe it's not it doesn't matter. The question is is does this serve me does this thought or story allow me to live by my values and be the person I want to be if the answer is yes.
40:08.92
Victoria Aron
It really doesn't matter. Yeah.
40:09.20
Kelli Walker
Right? Doesn't matter. Yeah, yeah.
40:21.69
Paulina Siegel
Lean into the thought if the answer is it doesn't serve me and it's creating emotional chaos then you need to diffuse from it and not give it the power and attention that that it is claiming. It deserves.
40:32.81
Kelli Walker
And can you tell us this is a practice right? This takes time. It's okay, if after the first time we don't know how to diffuse flawlessly. This can feel a little bit like a dogfight at first right am I the only one can this feel a little bit like a dogfight.
40:46.20
Paulina Siegel
Oh yeah I mean.
40:50.92
Kelli Walker
Yeah.
40:51.36
Victoria Aron
I mean for me right? It's been it's been eleven years you know it's been 111212 years of practicing now for me, there's no fight I don't even want to be in there anymore I don't this thing like it's.
40:51.40
Paulina Siegel
Yes.
40:55.78
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah.
41:05.60
Kelli Walker
Right.
41:11.79
Victoria Aron
We're friends but I recognize that like when I'm up here I'm not in the world I choose to be very very present all the time and so oh my God are you serious is everything My brain was everything my brain ruled my.
41:15.25
Kelli Walker
Um, right? But what about when you started the practice was it hard at first good I Think yeah yeah.
41:29.39
Victoria Aron
Freaking life is painful.
41:31.76
Paulina Siegel
It was but it was it felt impossible in the beginning I was like what do you mean? my thoughts aren't true. What do you mean? my thoughts aren't facts like everything. My brain told me I was like yes, brain whatever you say? Yeah, like yeah yeah.
41:33.17
Kelli Walker
Pay. Yeah yeah, yeah, I'm glad you're speaking to that guys? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yes, right.
41:47.95
Victoria Aron
Um, nah.
41:50.24
Kelli Walker
Yeah.
41:50.40
Paulina Siegel
I mean what you're speaking to is the truth for every single person I've been doing mindfulness practice for 7 years now dedicated I still struggle every day to sometimes diffuse or unhook from my so thoughts and stories that's normal.
41:56.76
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah, and.
42:03.33
Kelli Walker
And I think that's that's yeah and I Thank you I Think that's worth saying because sometimes especially those of us that struggle with anxiety. It's like I'm a recovering perfectionist like it's we want. You know we want to get it perfect and we forget like perfection isn't really part of the.. It's not about getting it perfect or it feeling I think we all hope maybe subconsciously. It'll feel like Kittens and rainbows and and good. But it's I think it's like any right like going to the gym and doing new exercises is hard and it's uncomfortable and it's not always pretty, but.
42:23.86
Paulina Siegel
No.
42:40.91
Kelli Walker
We get stronger. We get more adept we get more agile right? like it's like you said you guys have been doing this practice for a while now. Yeah, it's almost yeah, anything else, you guys want and would okay, go ahead. Good time.
42:43.17
Paulina Siegel
Right.
42:44.99
Victoria Aron
Um.
42:47.96
Paulina Siegel
Yeah, yeah, it's a muscle you just got to work it out and it gets stronger. Yeah.
42:55.58
Victoria Aron
Um I think I know no I think I think my approach is a little more like harsh David Gogginsey not because I agree with everything that he says but it's because like it's just worked so well for me and and the freer I've gotten from my mind. The more successful I've been in my life in every area you know so it's like um when I coach people right? and they're not in an acute state and we've been doing it for a while.
43:17.51
Kelli Walker
Um, right? yeah.
43:25.60
Victoria Aron
I can get pretty I can get pretty harsh and I'm like you're listening to a liar. She's not she's not in your best interest get into your body shut up, you know move. So I'm sure everybody wants to work with me who's listening to your podcast. Ah.
43:32.95
Kelli Walker
Um, it is yeah so.
43:41.44
Kelli Walker
But I love it. Well exactly different different strokes. You know I me I needed like you know what I needed when I was first starting like a grandma like a real gentle grandma you know like my voice.
43:43.11
Paulina Siegel
Actually Victoria.
43:43.37
Victoria Aron
Ah, the people that like me like me the people that don't don't.
43:55.24
Victoria Aron
Yeah, a bubby a bubby.
44:00.91
Kelli Walker
And needed a bobby like please like bring cookies and let's go gentle on me, you know my my inner critic and the voices I grew up were so harsh that it was like I I need a little softness but now you know sometimes I feel like you know what? you're speak to Sometimes there's value in a little bit of grit.
44:01.41
Paulina Siegel
I.
44:04.93
Victoria Aron
You yeah.
44:11.66
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah, um.
44:18.59
Paulina Siegel
Yeah.
44:19.63
Kelli Walker
Too right? like sometimes we need a little grit sometimes we need to get into our inner Warrior you know like.
44:20.12
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah.
44:25.10
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah, we did.
44:26.39
Paulina Siegel
Victoria and I went to dinner last night and and we had like a very deep and honest conversation and that approach that she took of like ah ah like enough is enough Paulina like.
44:39.78
Kelli Walker
I.
44:41.50
Paulina Siegel
You are part of this problem and I need you to recognize that sometimes that like that really powerful. Forceful Love is absolutely what's necessary and I think we can approach that with the brain like I will sarcastically talk to my brain and I'll be like brain fuck off dude.
44:43.25
Victoria Aron
You.
44:48.81
Kelli Walker
Yeah, yeah. As well. Yeah, and yeah, not not not today get too old for this? Yeah yeah.
45:00.71
Paulina Siegel
Like no I'm not I'm not doing this with you today I'm truly no, we're yeah, thanks, try again like sometimes I'm kind of forceful with my brain and that's actually really helpful as a diffusion technique.
45:04.40
Victoria Aron
Um.
45:12.32
Kelli Walker
Yeah, it makes me think of Dr Kristin Neff's fierce self-compassion like self-compassion is not always soft and calm and warm. Sometimes it's loud and it's fierce and we need that too. It's a right? It's the balancing act. Yeah good mixture.
45:15.71
Victoria Aron
Um, yeah.
45:16.20
Paulina Siegel
And.
45:25.65
Paulina Siegel
Um, right? yeah.
45:25.99
Victoria Aron
Good mixture.
45:30.76
Kelli Walker
Anything else. You guys want to add before we wrap up I.
45:32.85
Victoria Aron
This is great. Thank you so much. Don't.
45:33.30
Paulina Siegel
I mean I could I could ramble a bunch of things. But no I think I think we were powerful and.
45:42.11
Kelli Walker
This if fierce. There's some fear self for fierce friend compassion like ah like well or the kid That's like ah you forgot to sign our home.
45:45.80
Paulina Siegel
Ah, she's like don't that you know what it reminds me of is like when that kid raises his hand like I'll ask another question and everyone wants to get to lunch. Yeah.
45:53.74
Victoria Aron
Yeah, ah yeah, um, right.
45:59.98
Kelli Walker
Work like ah, it's Friday quiet. Well thank you so much. Thank you so much for being here today. Okay, well everyone can find you? um I'll share all your info in the show notes. But.
46:03.90
Paulina Siegel
Ah, no, we're we're thankful.
46:05.89
Victoria Aron
Yeah, so thankful. Thank you.
46:09.48
Paulina Siegel
Yes.
46:18.63
Kelli Walker
Shittalking shrinks Apple Podcasts Spotify everywhere um and that's our episode. Yeah, thanks so much for tuning in today if you're enjoying the show please subscribe and take a minute to write a review on Itunes so we can reach and support more people if you're looking for one on one coaching or have a question you'd like answered on the show. Please visit notanotheranxietyshow.com and until next time remember be kind to yourself.
46:36.96
Victoria Aron
Are amen.
