Episode 268: Gameplay and Storytelling to Heal from Anxiety with Daniel Hand
Join Kelli and guest Daniel Hand, therapeutic counsellor, author, and game designer, as they chat about the benefits of using tabletop role-playing games to navigate and heal from anxiety, trauma, and more. Not into Dungeons and Dragons like Dan and Kelli? No big deal, there are lots of ways to make this therapeutic intervention accessible to anyone, whether they're into hobbits or not!
To tune into the episode, listen on iTunes or Spotify.
Transcript
00:00.00
kelliwalkercoaching
Hey guys welcome to none other anxiety show I'm your host Kelly Walker and joining me today as guest Daniel Hand welcome Daniel I yeah I'm so glad you could carve out some time but.
00:07.24
Daniel Hand
Kelly thank you so much for having me.
00:14.94
kelliwalkercoaching
Before we dive in can I share a little more about you with our listeners and.
00:19.56
Daniel Hand
Well if you feel your listeners are going to be interesteded. Ah which is a british way of saying of course.
00:26.20
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, of course. Ah I love it. Daniel Hand is a british author historian game designer and therapeutic counselor in private practice his work has appeared in venues such as tales of ruma the popular culture psychology series and deco. The journal of the burma stars star association. His latest book is role-playing games in psychotherapy a practitioner's guide and he regularly speaks to the uses of gameplay and storytelling and client work to find out more or subscribe to his monthly ish newsletter. I love that same here monthly ish. Um, yeah to subscribe to his monthly ish newsletter you can visit wwwwdotmonomythcoseling.co.uk and that's counseling with 2 owls as Dan told me because that's the british way not the american way.
01:04.55
Daniel Hand
Yeah.
01:18.79
Daniel Hand
Course you know we've got to have standards in this conversation come on.
01:26.44
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah, oh I Love it I Love it. Do you guys spell Gray G R a Y or G R E y.
01:32.57
Daniel Hand
But how do you think we spell it come on.
01:37.36
kelliwalkercoaching
Is it G R E Y I knew it I knew it I knew it. Ah I.
01:38.96
Daniel Hand
Yes E E Wow Did you just oh it did so well oh have a done up.
01:52.14
kelliwalkercoaching
Have a I know we were talking about our love for donuts I feel like I just earned myself an afternoon donut when we're done here if anybody is ever in New Hampshire on the sea coastast love bird donuts. They did not pay me to say that. But yeah.
01:56.24
Daniel Hand
Um, the secret.
02:04.35
Daniel Hand
But to be fair just to make sure we get this very clear you earn an afternoon donut by getting out of bed in the morning you earn an afternoon grown up by there being an afternoon so you know.
02:11.68
kelliwalkercoaching
9 but I I agree I agree. Well so I've probably earned myself 2 donuts here I mean that's what I'm hearing but that's really what I'm here. Ah I love it. Um, you know first and foremost I personally am very curious to hear about you know what.
02:21.79
Daniel Hand
There you go. That's back? Yes, yeah yeah, um.
02:35.45
kelliwalkercoaching
Led you to using role-playing games in Therapy right? like were were you playing tabletop games Beforehand or what really led you to kind of go down that path to.
02:49.82
Daniel Hand
Oh laudie how long have we got? um so I've always been um, a creative individual I've um I was a fiction also long before um, but long before I left school actually um.
02:53.44
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah.
03:06.60
Daniel Hand
And so my approach my my ah gateway into um Rpg Play was actually um through play by post. So it was a writing exercise you each created a character then one person in the group wrote.
03:16.85
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
03:22.92
Daniel Hand
Ah, beat a little piece about their character and then somebody else wrote a bit about theirs and and the story moved on until it's inevitably just stopped because people grew tired and then as life moved on I discovered things obviously like the everywhere. All at once dungeons and dragons but also things like the wandering which is a lord of the rings based roleplay game and I am a huge Tolkien nuts. Oh the wandering is just oh heaven for me.
03:48.72
kelliwalkercoaching
Oh. You probably hear me writing that down as you're speaking the 1 ring because I'll be exploring that. Yes.
04:01.41
Daniel Hand
If you want to play the one ring just drop me a line I will I would spend the rest of my life in that game if I could. It's so good. Ah.
04:08.26
kelliwalkercoaching
I app good I'm writing that down I am writing that down call Dan for the 1 ring. Yeah, this.
04:15.93
Daniel Hand
So damn you know in in flashing neon signs. Um, now just get it tattooed in on your forehead so that every time you look in the mirror. It just says it there you go? Um, yeah, and alarms. Um.
04:24.10
kelliwalkercoaching
I Yeah I'll never forget. We don't need reminders on our phones I'll just get do it and.
04:34.65
Daniel Hand
And so when I was doing um my ah basic training to become a counselor I was kind of fiction and rpgs would they they were by that point just part of my being it was.
04:48.27
kelliwalkercoaching
I got it.
04:51.94
Daniel Hand
I I I go to bed in the evening and before the lights go out I write for X amount of time. Um, and then as you know big button. That's my ah computer telling me you've got somebody talking to you.
05:09.00
kelliwalkercoaching
And we got alarms. We were talking about that before we recorded alarms everywhere right? Whether it's our phone computer something always telling us what's what.
05:09.68
Daniel Hand
Yeah, know it doesn't happen very often. Yeah, yeah, and please never take us back to the before times when we didn't have these things.
05:23.34
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah, oh.
05:24.84
Daniel Hand
Um, but then obviously in the in the course we had to do things like presentations. You know, can you? How would you use X as an intervention. Can you think of an intervention to sort out X problem and I um.
05:35.69
kelliwalkercoaching
Um.
05:40.85
Daniel Hand
Ended up doing one on storytelling. Um and including ah games and and rpgs as part of that and the idea kind of stuck and then you know fast-forward a few years I was working with an extremely.
05:52.82
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
05:59.97
Daniel Hand
Difficult complex client and it was like well we need to do something what we're doing right now isn't working how about we play D and D that's because and it worked on so many levels.
06:13.89
kelliwalkercoaching
Um.
06:19.15
Daniel Hand
That it was just a case of yeah I can't I can't go back now. Um.
06:21.37
kelliwalkercoaching
Oh Wow Well you actually led me right to my next curiosity like I would love to hear you know what? what is special about using role-playing games in therapy like in other words.
06:37.51
Daniel Hand
Can be.
06:38.41
kelliwalkercoaching
What can it touch on or accomplish that maybe um, some of the quote unquote more traditional therapies. Don't like I'm I'm kind of thinking to um, just in my own experience. You know my husband recruited me reluctantly at first to playing dungeons and dragons and now. I might be like a bigger fan girl than he is honestly like I I love it but something I noticed is you know? and and I've shared this on the show I have a propensity to ruminate. It's what has fed my anxiety cycle in the past like ruminating on. Um.
06:59.10
Daniel Hand
Are.
07:16.50
kelliwalkercoaching
More specifically like worries and my husband has sort of this same almost obsessive nature. But do you know what? he'll be ruminating about is like what should I put um in that world. How should I mold that character and I see it sort of like fueling him or like um.
07:31.59
Daniel Hand
And.
07:35.30
kelliwalkercoaching
Almost providing a sense of like resilience whereas if I'm ruminating about worries like it. It really drains my Bandwidth Bandwidth and it like sort of detracts from my well-being where I'll see it sort of bolstering him, especially after like a crazy day at Work. So I would love to hear you know, especially. Shared about that client where it's like we've tried so many things What about this like what does role-playing games sort of allow that maybe traditional therapy doesn't or again touch on or what can we see in that.
08:10.40
Daniel Hand
Well the the punchline I always use you know the the catch phrasee about Rpg Therapy is we help our clients to Confront their inner demons by swinging swords at imaginary ones. Um.
08:22.00
kelliwalkercoaching
You You've nailed that elevator pitch like that is that you have that nailed That's great. That's.
08:27.60
Daniel Hand
And Obviously. Ah I did I didn't spend years practicing it? honest, um.
08:38.10
kelliwalkercoaching
I Still don't have my elevator pitch. It's the hardest thing in the whole world. But.
08:40.24
Daniel Hand
Course you got the Elev the elevator pitch you use, you've just got to say yeah go and listen to my podcast. That's how amazing I am job done.
08:47.94
kelliwalkercoaching
I yeah yeah, ah job done 1 sentence just like you I loved how you just like pared it down to to 1 sentence. But yeah I would I would still obviously love to hear more.
08:56.26
Daniel Hand
Um, yeah, oh yeah, yeah, so as we know yeah that no 2 clients are the same. So everything I say here is going to be to some extent simplistic or generalized. But.
09:04.94
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
09:10.54
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
09:13.62
Daniel Hand
Um, essentially the the way I approach um rpgs and roleplay within Therapy is as I mentioned earlier much more I came at it From. A writer from an author's point of View. So I'm a lot more kind of focused in on those aspects of storytelling character world setting obstacles and by imposing that sounds like a bit of a harsh word. But I'm going to carry on with it.
09:32.81
kelliwalkercoaching
I.
09:40.00
kelliwalkercoaching
I got it.
09:47.86
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
09:51.50
Daniel Hand
Um, like what I call a fictional frame around the client because obviously yeah as therapists we make use of the therapeutic frame a great Deal. You know time place, boundaries, agreements, Etc. The fictional frame kind of allows us to. Place our client in an entire world an entire universe designed specifically to help them battle there in a demons. Um, and you do that by creating a setting. Creating a character and creating some obstacles. That's the the holy trinity of of of storytelling and yeah, a big a big phrase in the news, especially during the um.
10:32.40
kelliwalkercoaching
Okay, got it.
10:45.75
Daniel Hand
The pandemic pandemic times was about parasocial relationships how we were developing relationships with these people. You know often celebrities but also fictional characters who you know didn't know we existed and actually the whole point of. Rpgs in Therapy but also the huge power of rpgs as a pastime is that we really develop this relationship with our characters. We want them to succeed we cheer when they you know shoot down the dragon we go I'll know.
11:12.64
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
11:23.87
Daniel Hand
When the Earth starts shaking anzul.
11:24.97
kelliwalkercoaching
And we're invested right? I mean we're invested and it's like ah we have a felt sense when we're playing that caricature. And yeah.
11:31.65
Daniel Hand
Hundred percent yeah and what? what do we want to give our clients as part of any therapeutic process but investment engagement and so you've got.
11:43.99
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
11:49.66
Daniel Hand
Automatically yeah, that transforms the the process into more of a rather than ah oh no I've got to go and talk about my problems this week. It's case of oh yeah, I get to fight the dragon this week. Oh.
11:59.58
kelliwalkercoaching
I Yeah I I know it's like okay I get to you know I get to have fun while healing and growing like really sometimes.
12:11.26
Daniel Hand
Um, yeah.
12:15.16
kelliwalkercoaching
If I've had a hard week or like I feel like my brain is stuck on something I'm like all right rouse rouse the rabble like we need to get a game of D and D and it's so amazing How it can interrupt like my propensity for like obsession and rumination and.
12:21.45
Daniel Hand
My left.
12:34.27
kelliwalkercoaching
Just in hearing you talk I'm kind of like you know, seeing it seeing it for myself like when when you're able to interject yourself into a whole world. It's like there's so many more perspectives. There's so many more solutions possibilities. It really has this. It allows you to like.
12:38.39
Daniel Hand
When you're able to interje your.
12:47.11
Daniel Hand
Yes, yes.
12:52.80
kelliwalkercoaching
Band right? like that viewpoint and and really sometimes that is at least for me half of like my struggle is like just seeing something in a new or or different way or from a different vantage point. But.
13:07.14
Daniel Hand
It's so powerful and and at the end of the day we're getting to witness not only our problems but the world's problems through a separate pair of eyes or set of eyes if you're playing the character's got more than one eye.
13:15.39
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
13:24.67
Daniel Hand
Ah suppose. Um, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, ah um, you know? Yeah, just get the din nuts down. Um, but also.
13:25.35
kelliwalkercoaching
Like a beholder 10 points for anybody that knows what a beholder is 10 Points. You also get a donut and just some love bird donuts like anybody that knows. Ah, yeah. Yeah I'll get you those donuts.
13:44.42
Daniel Hand
But just the next campaign either of us plays is just going to be a world of donuts isn't it if we're gonna be playing donuts in a world of donuts. It's gonna be awesome.
13:51.52
kelliwalkercoaching
I it's it's wonderful we my kids favorite game right? now. It's called Goutts for donuts. It's basically you're just playing a donut game and every time I'm like gosh. Why do I just want half a dozen donuts right now.
14:05.20
Daniel Hand
But you boil now we know oh oh dirty dirty girl. No, you're not supposed to so talk to me like that. It's far too early in the day. Um, but also.
14:09.63
kelliwalkercoaching
Now now we know I'm like man I really want that Boston cream. Yeah I know that's ah Austin cream.
14:25.22
Daniel Hand
Come on daniel stay on train don't get disturbed by ah but also the greatest thing about having this other character is we can give advice because you and I both know what is like giving Gad advice to ourselves. It's so much easier to tell somebody else what to do.
14:29.18
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah.
14:32.88
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
14:43.50
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, yeah.
14:43.15
Daniel Hand
And so when you've got this character faced with an emotional issue you say? Okay so what? what do you? think they're feeling right now. Okay, what? what? what do you? think they could do Oh okay.
14:56.53
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
14:59.44
Daniel Hand
So if you were in that situation would it be all right for you to do that you know and then you kind of just see a little light bulb go off and it's like yeah yeah suppose it could actually you know? yeah.
15:06.84
kelliwalkercoaching
It's it's an aha. Um, it's an aha moment. It's an opportunity to really make that aha that connection and.
15:15.97
Daniel Hand
And this is all so good for people who just struggle to engage with the therapy. It's like we we mentioned the investment and the engagement earlier if we can do because there are some clients who just come along and try so hard but just can't.
15:22.49
kelliwalkercoaching
So right.
15:33.37
Daniel Hand
Just can't quite do it. You know they've been traumatized. The anxiety is through the roof. Um.
15:39.18
kelliwalkercoaching
I It's too hot right? like too sensitized I Know that was the case for me right? like when I first started therapy in a really sensitized state. Um, you know it's like they were trying to do and turn like I was just I was like I can't even sit still right now like I can't even.
15:42.34
Daniel Hand
1
15:53.72
Daniel Hand
Um, Lincoln.
15:54.77
kelliwalkercoaching
Be in this room. Let alone like you know use my brain to think about my internal family Cis I have no idea like I Just don't feel safe in my body and yeah, it's like I can see how the idea of like play and engagement in that way can be really regulating.
16:11.76
Daniel Hand
It's it's wonderful and and again because because you can create an entire world around your client and the character you can literally create anything that the client needs I mean I had 1 client. Fairly recently who very young just crippled by anxiety about making decisions I mean um, he came to me and his parents put on the um referral form saying that he'd spent some like 2 hours trying to decide whether or not he wanted to have a banana or an Apple.
16:44.93
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
16:45.58
Daniel Hand
I Mean poor little guy and so part of the journey that he went on was walking through a forest and deciding which way to go around a tree. Do you go left where you go right? You know you still, you're still in the forest you're still. All that is is a tree in front of you and and part of it was just saying okay well I'm not the one taking the risk here. It's the character that takes the risk and so if anything good. Um, absolutely.
17:07.75
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, it's like there's just enough detachment right? to like see it from a higher vantage point. But then we also get invested like we talked like we care and feel for them and put I don't know about you but like sometimes I put an aspect of myself into a character and then just kind of.
17:27.12
Daniel Hand
I I'm actually going to take issue with you when you say you put an aspect to that. No you don't you put everything of you. Yeah, and because part part of the I mean the reason I wrote the book and is because at the moment.
17:27.32
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah, wild with it. You know, but yeah I.
17:33.62
kelliwalkercoaching
I Okay tell me everything and ah I.
17:46.87
Daniel Hand
The huge majority of rpgs out. There are a just too complex for any realistic use in a therapeutic setting. Um, but B Also um, geared towards group play. Um.
17:51.34
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah, right? yeah.
18:01.28
kelliwalkercoaching
I got it instead of individual right? like 1 on 1 or individual.
18:05.43
Daniel Hand
Yeah, and okay, yeah, there are plenty of group therapists out there but the vast majority are trained only to work 1 to 1 and um, but yeah, so as part of the writing process I I created an entire game system. It was great I managed to.
18:11.91
kelliwalkercoaching
So right? so.
18:22.58
Daniel Hand
Write a game. Master's guide and pass it off as an academic book. It's awesome. Um, well you see my first job after university was in academic publishing and I was the most complained about member of staff in the company's history and yet and.
18:26.15
kelliwalkercoaching
But you're living your dream like that right like in court That's like yeah.
18:42.00
Daniel Hand
I feel like I'm just trolling the academic but ah profession now it's it's yeah, um, that's a story for another time I'll speak to you next week um
18:45.94
kelliwalkercoaching
But I Love it. Yeah I know Well, it's like here you have this opportunity to bring in right? like sometimes we talk about. Healing in whatever sense being a science and an art right? like at least in coaching that's a piece of it too and to be able to bring in the artistic I mean it's like the humanizing art. It's the it's a very human piece. So yeah to be able to bring in that artistic bit I imagine is very satisfying.
19:09.31
Daniel Hand
Yeah, and always hugely satisfying and so and when I was um because I designed the system long before it became a book and with the character sheets.
19:24.47
kelliwalkercoaching
Gotcha.
19:26.49
Daniel Hand
Ah I used d and d for that first time with that one client and then never used it again because it took us 2 whole sessions to create the character because you'll know from your own experience that d and d. The characterrots creation process just goes on and on on and this this guy wasn't his parents weren't paying for him to sit down and do paperwork they want me to help him. Um, so but the carrots creation process is fascinating because it doesn't matter how hard a person tries.
19:38.67
kelliwalkercoaching
Oh yeah.
19:57.36
Daniel Hand
You will always end up giving the character elements of yourself.
19:59.74
kelliwalkercoaching
Oh yeah, it's I mean I can't think of a character that and and this was actually one of my questions right? like do people like when you're going through this therapeutic Process. You know, are you encouraging people to make a character that is similar is. Of them or do you are or is it like the opposite. Do you encourage people to make a character that is you know I think about if we identify as like neutral good you know do do they ever make a character that is like.
20:31.41
Daniel Hand
Um.
20:33.46
kelliwalkercoaching
You know lawful Evil or I know some people will know what we're talking about but like just like a different alignment right than what they are or is it most therapeutic when they can kind of see at least parts of themselves in the character and like you said I guess it's kind of impossible.
20:35.38
Daniel Hand
Yeah days over done.
20:47.83
Daniel Hand
Well.
20:52.16
kelliwalkercoaching
To create a character without some aspect of us that.
20:55.54
Daniel Hand
Yeah I mean there's a common ah phrase in fiction writing write what you know which is always kind of not annoyed me but as in is a case of well it's impossible to not write what you know? um you know and.
21:01.72
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
21:10.60
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, yeah, yeah.
21:12.47
Daniel Hand
The same goes with creating a character. Yeah, and I mean just to answer the question. No I I don't direct whether or not they should create something you know, but literally just throw anything at me and we'll go with it. Um, but yes, absolutely because the thing is yeah.
21:21.67
kelliwalkercoaching
And cool. Yeah, open-ended like the world. It sounds like just kind of any possibilities and yeah, cool.
21:32.80
Daniel Hand
If yeah, they might well choose to create a character who is completely unlike them but in order to do that. They've had to develop some awareness of what they are actually like and and likewise if they create a character who's exactly like themselves. Then that means we can say okay, did you know that.
21:42.10
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
21:51.13
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
21:51.64
Daniel Hand
About yourself and you just move on and and because if you could part because part of the the character sheet I designed it it mostly looks at relationships and hopes and fears. You can tell that it was created by a therapist.
22:09.16
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, it's got that sprinkled in there that that special therapist touch right.
22:10.70
Daniel Hand
Um, yeah, yeah, but so for the fears. For example, it it doesn't matter what they put in there. It'll probably end up being something that the client.
22:22.79
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
22:28.60
Daniel Hand
On a certain level thinks is a bad thing because otherwise why would it be something to be afraid of you know, just just little moments like that and and again none of this can be claimed as being universal for every client but it.
22:32.74
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? yeah.
22:44.10
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? so.
22:46.92
Daniel Hand
Just sitting there even just doing the carrots creation process is just mesmerizing and then watching that character go through a world and decide which way to walk around a tree is just it. It makes your heart.
22:58.54
kelliwalkercoaching
I.
23:06.38
Daniel Hand
Swell. It's so wonderful. It really is or.
23:10.40
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, and you know like ah before before dungeons and dragons are like the only role playing I Really knew about is like you know we all attend those. Ah, Hr trainings right? where we have to like role play for interpersonal relationships like conflict resolution and seeing ourselves like and and other people's shoes. But um, I'm wondering does this therapeutic gameplay help with it sounds like um.
23:24.59
Daniel Hand
Yeah.
23:38.78
kelliwalkercoaching
It can help with interpersonal but it sounds like it's really supportive for like that intrapersonal relationship to self and.
23:49.62
Daniel Hand
It's really wonderful I mean it again because you can pretty much decide anything that goes into this fictional world. Yes, it can be. Fantastic for developing things like empathy with other people you know watching the character develop relationships can be okay so I can learn from the development of those relationships and I can go away and and behave a bit like my character or it's very good for.
24:05.72
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
24:23.79
Daniel Hand
Yeah, working with the inner child you know so've I've had a couple of adult clients come along who just claimed you know the cause of so circumstances growing up. They just they felt they never really got to play as a child. So okay, fine. Well let's play. Let's just give that inner child.
24:24.80
kelliwalkercoaching
I got it.
24:35.97
kelliwalkercoaching
And. And reconnect to that. Yeah, reconnecting to that choice. Yeah, it's so healing I know it sounds silly. But after like a D and D session I always feel like I'm just like standing or sitting a little taller I feel lighter like it's just.
24:43.60
Daniel Hand
Yeah, hundred percent
24:53.13
Daniel Hand
Yeah, just.
24:57.68
kelliwalkercoaching
It's so wonderful and it's so funny because I did come to it reluctantly like it was totally.. It was not my bag. It was totally my husband's thing and really they just wanted a certain of out of people that have a good rounded out game and I have totally been converted, especially getting over some of that initial. Performance anxiety right? like or um, you know I learned about myself through it like oh like there's definitely some perfectionism tendencies because you know you were describing your client with analysis process I'm always trying to make the right decision and then I'm like ah and I'm like wait. It's a game like I can here's where I can actually be less risk averse right? like I can just go for it and there's room and space here to be a little different than my you know natural tendency might might be.
25:39.32
Daniel Hand
Yeah space.
25:50.49
Daniel Hand
Yeah, and and also some of the imagery we create? Yeah, the first campaign I ever played um years ago now was we we had one of my friends was playing a hobbit. Um, called bandabbrass the mighty absolutely insane, really squishy would die if you sneezed on him but genuinely believed. He was an unkillable and at one point. He jumped on af on one of the characters dogs and rode the dog into battle with the rest of us having to run after him to make sure he didn't get killed just that's an image which is never going to leave any of us because it is just.
26:30.20
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah, ah I love it so much right.
26:38.30
Daniel Hand
So ridiculous. So much fun and made for an amazing experience and we can give that to our clients just do this and and they can take it away. It's not just the Rpg You know they can go away. They can write stories about these characters. They can.
26:39.64
kelliwalkercoaching
This yeah.
26:50.54
kelliwalkercoaching
Now.
26:56.18
Daniel Hand
Paint draw pictures paint paintings write poetry join another Rpg group and carry on carry on the adventure that we're giving we are simply using this as a tool within the therapeutic process but because it's so.
27:10.59
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
27:15.72
Daniel Hand
Ah, malleable that they can do whatever they want with it and it's just you you and I but are both sitting here going? Oh yeah I remember that time that happened well we can give that to our clients and but what's even more amazing is what they get out of it is.
27:16.55
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? yeah.
27:34.87
Daniel Hand
Not only was that cool but I know now how to approach this situation a bit better.
27:38.46
kelliwalkercoaching
And right and have like a better understanding of myself and the way I operate in the world and like ways forward. And yeah I.
27:45.00
Daniel Hand
Um, yeah, and ah the the the power and of it of that that that um level of detachment that you mentioned it I tend to use the phrase just arm's length.
27:58.95
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
28:01.81
Daniel Hand
Ah, talking um can allow for so much because again, it's the character that's taking all the risks. Um, anybody who's heard me talk before will probably roll their eyes now because I just use this same example over and over again. But I I can't not because.
28:07.59
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? so.
28:19.62
Daniel Hand
Oh My word. It was so amazing I had this young man come to me um, crippling anxiety um to the point where he developed Mutism. He just couldn't talk and ah came to sessions. Really tried Hard. You could see him really struggling to engage but just couldn't do it. We created a character sent him sent the character on his way had him walk into a village meet somebody and you know I had a character go up to I had an an Npc a nonplayer character got to his character.
28:38.39
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
28:57.00
Daniel Hand
And say hi how you doing and instantly this young man was talking because it's not him talking. It's the character talking and then all of a sudden This young man has now got practice of the act of noise coming out of his mouth.
29:05.23
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
29:16.66
Daniel Hand
And you know the world not ending the sky not falling because a huge part of anxiety is catastrophizing what happens if I do X and by practicing talking via his character. He could learn that Well if I.
29:23.34
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? yeah.
29:36.25
kelliwalkercoaching
It. It's okay, yeah, like it's safe for like that sort of experiential knowledge like I talked like I was safe I was fun right? like not only like safe. Okay, but like oh like it was fun. Yeah, and it.
29:36.61
Daniel Hand
Talk nothing. Bad's going to happen people. Yeah.
29:48.69
Daniel Hand
Um, yeah.
29:55.31
kelliwalkercoaching
Feel like that can really integrate right? that that knowledge that.
29:55.94
Daniel Hand
And yeah, but also you know we get we get to offer our clients tailor-made attachment figures. You know if you've grown up with difficult. Yeah poor attachment. No yeah, absolutely.
30:06.52
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? Poor attachments or no attachments right? Or yeah.
30:15.84
Daniel Hand
You know that's sets you down a particular path which makes relationships difficult. Well here we can give you somebody who is literally designed from the ground up exists solely to make it.
30:31.72
kelliwalkercoaching
For that character and.
30:35.39
Daniel Hand
Be there for you and tell me that isn't powerful stuff.
30:41.26
kelliwalkercoaching
And I was just going to say it's magical in a good way. Powerful is a better word I think like just powerful right? to really cultivate this like sense of safety you know sense of confidence sense of perspective.
31:00.70
Daniel Hand
Yeah.
31:00.30
kelliwalkercoaching
All while playing right? like it makes me. It makes me think of like you hear about play-based learning for kids all the time right? Like how important play is for learning and growth and development and from what I've seen you know studies are supportive of that for adults too like it's.
31:09.40
Daniel Hand
Fall in.
31:16.62
Daniel Hand
Yeah, so.
31:19.28
kelliwalkercoaching
We might see it in our over Overperformance-ridden culture as like oh just a waste of time or you know we might undervalue it. But really I think just in this conversation with you right? It's easy to see or hear or really understand how how play can be incredibly. Healing. You know, especially especially if some of the other again quote unquote more traditional for lack of a better word. Um, therapies don't necessarily resonate with us or in conjunction with right like you know, whatever or.
31:48.61
Daniel Hand
Yeah, and yeah, oh yeah, absolutely I mean I haven't had a single client that I use rpgs with where we've only ever used rpgs. You know they come along. We have such you know what? I'm not really in in the right place this week can we just.
31:59.49
kelliwalkercoaching
Only now.
32:07.93
Daniel Hand
Talk and's like yeah of course we can um and I had something deeper meaningful to say then I've actually forgotten what it was and it'll come back, but it's we give them whatever they want and traditionally most people associate.
32:15.43
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
32:27.92
kelliwalkercoaching
I Like high Fanta I know I do too I was gonna like but but it doesn't have to it sounds like it doesn't necessarily have to be like high fantasy like you know like lord of the rings or.
32:28.14
Daniel Hand
Fantasy with rpgs that that's the what? yeah partner. No no, not at all. Now you can be science fiction. There are some fantastic superhero rpgs. Oh. No got an ice cream van out here. It's not donut but you never I Um I'm afraid So yes, no oh Wow. Yeah.
32:46.00
kelliwalkercoaching
Is that an ice cream truck. Oh I Love a gosh memories with I live on a rural road. So like we do not get an ice cream truck anymore. But it's you know it's It's a great loss. Yeah.
33:00.70
Daniel Hand
I'll go down and say that and they need to start selling donuts that's ah yeah.
33:05.16
kelliwalkercoaching
You have any Toutts magic gone up to an ice excuse me. Do you have any donutts like I feel like the luck would get like oh you know this is an ice cream truck. You should sell donuts. Yeah, do you.
33:13.30
Daniel Hand
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah I know it's an ice stream frog but just hang me out. Do you have any good notes.
33:21.23
kelliwalkercoaching
1 do you if not 2 you should, but.
33:23.27
Daniel Hand
You yes indeed and 3 what is wrong with you. You don't sell Doughutts come on. Yeah, get your ad together and move it. Um, but yeah, no, and there is a ah I mean as.
33:29.36
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah, ah, come on now get with the times catch her.
33:39.88
Daniel Hand
Great game called Thirsty Sword Lesbians you know Rpg It's there that you can. There's there. Sorry yeah.
33:41.29
kelliwalkercoaching
I Love it's endless. It's something for everybody I was saying it's like endless the the options right? like and it sounds like really it can be tailored to what resonates with with anybody.
33:59.60
Daniel Hand
It can I mean what I would say and that is and this is kind of a word of caution. Um is that because it can be anything. It also needs to be quite. Yeah, as in you if you're going to use this with clients. You must be a professional working with clients. Um, because there are some dark rpgs out there. Some Rpg is designed specifically to traumatize characters. We don't want to traumatize our clients.
34:16.92
kelliwalkercoaching
Absolutely yeah. So yeah, yeah.
34:29.41
kelliwalkercoaching
So no say Yeah, no, that would no absolutely not yet. We want to use it for you know this is something you use for healing and growth right? and fun and fun.
34:32.73
Daniel Hand
Just between you and me that that would not be an ideal scenario and yeah, and and yeah and and as long as we as professionals use it properly. You know it again. Just use that word powerful. It is. It's It's an extra tool to put in your box you know and whatever Modality you are be it person centered psychodynamic systemic cbt there. There will always be some way that you can.
34:57.87
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? after that.
35:12.58
Daniel Hand
Mold it to your needs and yeah, be it life coaching social services. It's It's a way of just engaging your clients in a fun way that will have them coming back I mean who doesn't want to.
35:29.47
kelliwalkercoaching
So yeah, right, like it. Always you know when I accomplish a great feat. It feels like a personal success I Know it's a game but this like it kind of speaks to this.
35:30.24
Daniel Hand
Kill a dragon you know.
35:39.78
Daniel Hand
Minutes fixed.
35:44.11
kelliwalkercoaching
You know, like when we think about somatics in the body. Even if it's imaginary right? Like how often I can't imagine how many times I have imagined myself into an anxious state like I can also write through play and imagine myself in an accomplished confident like.
35:45.33
Daniel Hand
And.
35:54.33
Daniel Hand
Excellent.
36:02.89
kelliwalkercoaching
It rounds out the picture and it rounds out the picture.
36:03.25
Daniel Hand
Um, I mean at the end of the day This is just kind of an extension of the pretend play that the majority of us did as kids I mean when I was grown up um, power rangers were brand new.
36:13.25
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? yeah.
36:20.14
Daniel Hand
And I but I was a military child and me and my ma when we were living in Germany always used to play power ranges that was role play I played the black ranger. He played the red ranger that and we just went around go ha ha.
36:27.82
kelliwalkercoaching
So totally.
36:36.50
kelliwalkercoaching
I I.
36:40.24
Daniel Hand
And just cheering at the thought of this monster being destroyed by the Megazord So cool. So cool. Ah.
36:44.74
kelliwalkercoaching
I Yeah oh I remember the Megazord Oh my Gosh Nostalgia nostalgia. Ah yeah.
36:52.51
Daniel Hand
Ah, and and again the the big problem with rpgs is they are so complex and they are very much designed for group play which is great but.
37:04.87
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
37:08.81
Daniel Hand
For us for the vast majority of us in this profession. We can't We can't work with that.
37:12.42
kelliwalkercoaching
It's right? Yeah, it's making it accessible right? and it sounds like that's what your book does right? is like making it 1 accessible to therapists and 2 making you know like sort of tweaking it or or. Making it work in. You know the paradigm of 1 to 1 sessions in clients and.
37:33.51
Daniel Hand
Yes, absolutely. And and I should um ah say just to kind of ease Some people's minds because a big problem I've come across when talking to people about doing this is just the. The lack of Confidence. Oh I could never do that with my clients I I'm just not imaginative enough and.
37:52.60
kelliwalkercoaching
I Yeah that was me when I started too right? like that was like my big hangup. You know this is just playing in a casual group with my closest closest friends and. Still you know it's that that barrier like oh I'm not a creative person I'm not artistic I'm not you know this is this is not me. So yeah, you can continue on but I I could see how that might be a barrier for for clients or practitioners.
38:15.20
Daniel Hand
Know Yeah, and and yes indeed and the the the huge majority of the book is just okay yeah I appreciate that you feel you don't know what to do? Okay I'll tell you you do this. You do this and you do this. That's it Yeah, like yeah like.
38:36.45
kelliwalkercoaching
I Do this takes out the guesswork right? like it's like a nice solid foundation like takes out the guesswork and um, you know, um, and maybe it evolves from there and they're making their own worlds. But it's nice I Imagine it's very nice for practitioners to have like. Ah, like a starting point like that something supporting them.
38:54.76
Daniel Hand
Yeah, absolutely and and bearing in mind after a few sessions you'll realize actually I know what I'm doing.
39:03.80
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, right? I never thought I could even create like a character in a backstory and now it's so much more Seamless. It's been.. It's been interesting I think you know Overall it was an interesting experience for me to see something that I didn't feel like came natural to me that I was reluctant about but like I value my husband So I you know value his values and trying something new but to see it go Yeah Yada Yada you know, politically correct answer. Yeah.
39:29.90
Daniel Hand
Um, yeah I could I could hear you rolling your eyes there.
39:34.00
kelliwalkercoaching
I was absolutely rolling my eyes like you know, politically correct answer um but it has been interesting to see like it's been a really valuable learning experience because I've seen myself like really cultivate more creativity and like.
39:43.81
Daniel Hand
Experience because I've seen what it's so like.
39:51.77
kelliwalkercoaching
Willingness to put myself out there and you know just a bone I didn't think I had in my body. It's like I got to reconnect with I don't know if you've ever heard of those aneograms but you know, ah yeah, so.
39:59.95
Daniel Hand
Um, Robert.
40:03.70
Daniel Hand
Oh yes, yeah.
40:07.83
kelliwalkercoaching
I Always get number 4 which is like the artist and I'm like I'm an artist without a medium here. So It was nice to connect like because like many of us I do have a very creative side in an artistic side and and it was you know healing and and helped me grow to kind of connect to that bit when it was something. I Never would have looked at never would have engaged and just wouldn't have thought twice about to to be honest because like you said I'm like oh I'm one of those people I'm just not creative I can't do that and it's been interesting to see myself as able to do it and even Able. To lead you know, occasional 1 ne-off sessions which is a lot of work. You know like you're talking about. It's a lot of work. Um, but yeah, it's just been interesting to see that growth and that that yeah, that transition? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
40:53.64
Daniel Hand
Can I ask a question of you if if that's all right have you developed a crippling dice addiction.
41:06.40
kelliwalkercoaching
You have no idea not as not as bad as my husband my my husband probably has I don't Ah I don't know I don't know how many dice he has but like I have a big old fat mason jar at least full of.
41:06.78
Daniel Hand
Oh I think I did.
41:23.16
kelliwalkercoaching
Different dice right now I'm using really cool dice with little like clockwork and gears in them. Nobody will know what this is if you do a hundred points I'm playing a clockwork sorcerer so I have some really cool. Yeah, she she is similar to me in that she is a bit obsessive.
41:31.96
Daniel Hand
For source. Oh yeah.
41:40.80
kelliwalkercoaching
And compulsive and it's It's fun to see her like have to deal with chaos right? Just speaking of like the healing and growing but like her having to encounter chaos and being out of control and you know it's It's good for someone like me, you know that can identify with that. But yes, very cool dice clockwork.
41:57.65
Daniel Hand
I spent a stupid amount of money over the weekend because we had something called UKGA United Kingdom Games expo which is just 3 holes full of geeks talking rubbing shoulders and buying games and I bought some holographic dice.
42:00.36
kelliwalkercoaching
Gears and dice.
42:06.13
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
42:14.45
kelliwalkercoaching
Oh.
42:16.53
Daniel Hand
Which basically just glass and have prisms in them so you get a rainbow every time you turn your dye. It's oh they're just that gorgeous. But oh God I That's too expensive I can't afford all of these.
42:25.17
kelliwalkercoaching
I know I know is it I forget I get it I know and I'm pretty sure some of them are maybe like weighted a little a little funky some of the ones I get. But yeah, my husband's like.
42:30.36
Daniel Hand
I've got 3 sets of dice waiting for me on kickstarter for goodness sakes.
42:39.61
Daniel Hand
New.
42:43.92
kelliwalkercoaching
Recruited my kids with this addiction. They have dice that have like little turtles in them because they love turtles I'm like don't start them down your path yet. But also let me see those turtle dice. Ah.
42:47.25
Daniel Hand
Are you out good. So so just a word of warning to anybody listening here who thinks that they like the sound of this The dice are inexorable.
43:04.38
kelliwalkercoaching
ah ah god I just I love the dice that's half the reason I show up but ah, well thank you so much Dan for taking time to hop on and you know tell us about this really cool therapeutic. You know, paradigm and also you know, just.
43:09.30
Daniel Hand
And.
43:24.00
kelliwalkercoaching
Geeking out with me and talking D and D because I love and again I know I heard you say like listen this does not have to be D and D but selfishly thank you for giving me a space to talk about D and D and I'm sure we have at least some listeners that are like yes they're speaking my D and D Love language that.
43:33.55
Daniel Hand
And there I.
43:39.52
Daniel Hand
I Hope so but also I genuinely would encourage people to go out there and try other rpgs because D and D Yeah great. But yeah I mean I've got an appalling number of books by my side.
43:48.11
kelliwalkercoaching
Great, but just one. It's just one of many.
43:57.70
Daniel Hand
Um, different systems different genres different tones and if you decide that high fantasy isn't for you. Okay, Paul don't worry, you can go and do low fantasy. You can go and do historic.
44:00.94
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
44:15.33
Daniel Hand
I've got a game here called twilight two thousand which is a military themed rpg that takes place after a nuclear exchange with Russia not that's not at all ah poignant. No no.
44:30.34
kelliwalkercoaching
And not at all. Ah.
44:34.64
Daniel Hand
So there really there is something for everyone and now you've got another one because I'm getting a book released about using ah rpgs with clients and even if you don't work with clients as long as you. Don't use it with people. It's got plenty of advice and now on how to just run a game. So.
44:57.31
kelliwalkercoaching
I right on how to run a game Absolutely right? and I imagine it's something someone can bring you know if they're interested like hey do you do this or hey you know like to their practitioner therapist is this something. You'd be interested in or and then it's like they have a.
45:07.93
Daniel Hand
Yeah, yeah.
45:15.69
kelliwalkercoaching
You know they have a guideline and.
45:16.13
Daniel Hand
Yeah, hundred percent and it's it's such an exciting time so people are starting to realize that rpgs are a valid form of intervention and it's so exciting really is.
45:31.30
kelliwalkercoaching
I I couldn't agree more. Well thank you so much for taking time to hop on the show I Really appreciate that.
45:38.77
Daniel Hand
Thank you for having me. It's been an absolute pleasure I don't get to geek out this this often. So um's and somebody who understands donuts that we forget everything else just I mean I think the next book needs to be.
45:49.89
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
45:56.16
kelliwalkercoaching
I Yeah well that's I Well I'm thinking now my gee donuts dungeons and dragons. My my love language ah jump done. Ah, ah.
45:56.59
Daniel Hand
Doughnuts in Psychotherapy. Yeah.
46:02.94
Daniel Hand
Yeah, job dumb I'll see you tomorrow.
46:09.89
kelliwalkercoaching
Well, that is our episode. Thanks so much for tuning in today if you're enjoying the show please subscribe and take a minute to write a review on iTunes that we can reach and support more people if you're looking for one-on-one coaching or have a question you'd like answered on the show. Please visit notanotherananxietyshow.com and until next time remember be kind to yourself.
