Episode 271: Anxiety and Chronic Pain/Symptoms with Christie Uipi
Join Kelli and guest Christie Uipi as they discuss how anxiety and chronic pain/symptoms go hand in hand, creating an anxiety-pain cycle, and how we can support ourselves in breaking that cycle.
To tune into the episode, listen on iTunes or Spotify.
Transcript
00:00.00
kelliwalkercoaching
Hey guys welcome to not another anxiety show I'm your host Kelly Walker and joining me today as guest Christie Weepy hi krisie
00:06.52
Christie Uipi
Hi Kelly thank you so much for having me.
00:09.58
kelliwalkercoaching
I know I'm really glad to have you here today before we dive into our chat which I'm very excited for. Do you mind if I share a little more about you with our listeners. Wonderful.
00:17.68
Christie Uipi
I Would love that. Thank you.
00:24.14
kelliwalkercoaching
Christie weepy is the executive director of the better mind center and a psychotherapist specializing in the treatment of chronic pain anxiety and depression. She lectures nationally on psychotherapeutic interventions to treat chronic pain and is committed to cross-disciplinary collaboration between mental health and physical medicine. Christie is also a recovered chronic pain patient herself. The healing process was so profoundly transformational for the quality of her life that she has dedicated her career to supporting others through their recoveries and you can find Christie at bettermindcenter.com so Christie can you start by telling us a little bit about how chronic pain and anxiety go hand in hand.
01:09.29
Christie Uipi
Yes I would love to so to answer this I think it's helpful to know what pain is pain all pain comes from the brain one ah hundred percent of the time. So yes, I'm a psychotherapist that treats it pain from a psychological point of view. But pain 100% of the time is generated by the brain. Even if you say break your leg or stub your toe your leg and your toe have no ability to create the sensation of pain right? It's the brain that generates pain sensation and then the brain that sends those sensations down to the injured.
01:44.94
kelliwalkercoaching
Moon.
01:45.49
Christie Uipi
Body part so all pain comes from the brain. There's 3 There's 3 little take-home messages that I want people to understand about pain. The first is all pain comes from the brain. The second one is pain is a danger signal the purpose of pain is to protect us. It alerts us to threat and yes in the case of acute structural injury.
01:56.86
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
02:04.41
Christie Uipi
Threat is damaged to our body if you stub your toe your toe got hurt if you break your leg your leg got hurt so pain is a danger signal. It serves to protect us but number 3 is brain. Our brains can activate pain when we perceive threat of.
02:09.86
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, right.
02:20.13
Christie Uipi
Any kind. So we're used to thinking about pain most of the time as warning us to threaten our body but our brains can warn us of threat that's emotional and psychological in nature as well. So if you think about butterflies before a first date.
02:33.45
kelliwalkercoaching
Um.
02:36.69
Christie Uipi
Or getting a headache after a stressful day at work. Those are real physical sensations that you feel in your body but you don't think when you get butterflies in your stomach. Oh my gosh what is wrong with my stomach I need to go get some sort of scope I'm going to book a gi appointment. You usually just think oh. Dressed now I have butterflies in my stomach anything with like a attention headache. You don't usually book an an appointment with a doctor. The second you get a attention headache. You think oh I'm stressed. It'll probably pass in the morning so pain that's caused by the fear center of our brain is called neurplastic pain and I think a lot of us accept that. On a day-to- day basis without thinking much of it when it's acute again like butterflies in the stomach or feeling nauseous or attention headache. We know it're relatedated distress and we hope that it'll pass or it's circumsantial where it have you but acute. Neuroplastic pain is only 1 type of neuroplastic pain. There's also chronic neuroplastic pain. So this is stuff like chronic neck pain chronic back pain headaches and migraines that you get frequently or have every day fibromyalgia tendonitis pelvic pain ibs symptoms tinnitus dizziness are all types of. Chronic symptoms that use the same processes as acute neuroplastic pain like butterflies in your stomach or attention headache but that actually lasts for months if not yeah or if not years if you aren't getting the proper treatment for it.
03:50.98
kelliwalkercoaching
And.
04:03.50
kelliwalkercoaching
And how does this?? Um, well before I sort of ask. Okay, how does this relate to anxiety which you know use the words danger I can I can hear the underpinnings of fight or flight right and in this sort of um. Neuroplastic pain this more chronic habitual pain that you're speaking to but I just wanted to touch On. You know you said? Okay, what is pain and I'm wondering for those of us that struggle with anxiety right? It's not uncommon to um, sort of have. Seemingly odd sensations become chronic. Not ones we necessarily think of as painful but I know for me when I've been really sensitized or others that have like shared their experience. Um, they might become preoccupied with like. Ah, sensation of warmth where they'll like keep tracking their temperature right? like it's not necessarily painful or like I know one person shared with me. There was this weird um, warm sensation on the back of my um, lower back size of a corridor or like these seemingly odd sensations that.
04:50.16
Christie Uipi
Yeah.
05:06.60
kelliwalkercoaching
I Don't know that we would necessarily describe as oh it hurts or it's painful but are still distressing or upsetting or um, you know, send some kind of danger signal to us would would you kind of include that with chronic pain.
05:22.53
Christie Uipi
Absolutely chronic sensations of any kind. So I I love I love how you're putting this if our brains can flip on that danger mechanism that creates the sensation of pain. Well, that's just 1 word for it. We could also say tightness we could say burning stabbing pain but we could also say.
05:25.74
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, any kind.
05:37.12
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, so.
05:42.14
Christie Uipi
Sensations that are uncomfortable that you might not say have the quality of pain like tension or fluttering in your stomach or that just like uncomfortable energy feeling. That's actually really uncomfortable when you have anxiety all of that can be activated from the danger signal. Yeah.
05:46.80
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, right? Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah at all of that wonderful I Just want it? Yeah, Thank Thank you! That's a very all inclusive definition. Of pain and I I had a feeling that you know there was probably some relationship there and I just wanted to clarify that because again so many of us that are caught in more chronic anxiety experience these chronic sensations that yeah we don't necessarily say oh, it's painful, but it's definitely not Fun. Um. But yeah, can you tell us a little bit about this relationship between the neuroplasticic Neurolas Neuroplastic pain like that habitual almost and I say this very carefully like almost that sort of learned sense of pain like how does this go hand in hand or coincide.
06:39.14
Christie Uipi
Yeah, okay so there's 2 places that I want to focus on to answer this question and thank you for bringing me back to the anxiety component because they really are they're almost interchangeable when we think about chronic pain and chronic anxiety and they're really really wrapped up with each other so the.
06:39.70
kelliwalkercoaching
With anxiety.
06:49.68
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, right.
06:55.92
Christie Uipi
The first place where anxiety lives or the first place where anxiety is indicated when we talk about chronic pain is when we talk about psychological or emotional threat. So the psychological or emotional threat can be pretty much anything that's stressing us out or in the outside world and that can be internal or external right? like.
07:07.75
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, right? and.
07:13.81
Christie Uipi
If we have a way internally if we have a way of relating to ourselves That's stressful if we put a lot of pressure on ourselves if we hold ourselves to high standards if we are often critical of ourselves I mean I'm raising my hand because this is what I think no I I fall into that category that.
07:19.34
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah, yeah, me too. You can't see me me too both hands. Yeah.
07:33.20
Christie Uipi
Can be. We can be psychologically stressful to ourselves and then externally as well I mean any difficult life circumstance that we're going through that can make us anxious ah break up a job transition moving. Um the life transitions having having a baby losing a loved one. What have you.
07:34.80
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? right.
07:50.61
Christie Uipi
Any type of internal or external psychological or emotional threat aka something that's making us anxious can generate those sensations whether that sensation is pain. It can go to your back and can be back pain or whether that sensation is a pit in the stomach.
07:54.21
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
08:06.94
Christie Uipi
Either way your body is creating a physical manifestation of it of that anxiety and then the second place I want to mention where anxiety and fear really plays a big role in the chronic perpetuation of symptoms is the way we respond to that sensation and you were talking about this just a few minutes ago
08:24.71
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, yeah.
08:25.94
Christie Uipi
A lot of the time when we feel pain in our neck or we feel pain in our pelvic area if we're not clued in and Mainstream Medicine doesn't really set us up very well for this because this is not information. That's super well disseminated if we're not. Clued into the fact that pain physical unpleasant sensations in our body can come can can be generated entirely by the brain. It's really stressful to wake up with back pain or pelic pain or neck pain so you don't necessarily have the information that you need to feel calm and confident.
08:47.40
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
08:59.65
Christie Uipi
To respond to that sensation. So we respond with anxiety we respond with fear that's a natural human response. It's not anyone doing anything wrong that someone's saying oh my gosh. What's going on here and how can I fix this and again if we're not given some of this information that helps us understand wait.
09:02.31
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, fear. Yeah.
09:09.66
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? right.
09:18.54
Christie Uipi
Pain can actually be sourced in anxiety pain can be fully generated uncomfortable sensations can be fully generated by my brain. Maybe there's not something wrong with the pathology or the structure of my body of my back of my pelvis. Whatever it is maybe this is fear. Yeah.
09:30.90
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, well exactly whatever sensation is because I think so many of us kind of assume because like you said this very much lives in the body these sensations these right? like we're feeling this bodily experience and it's natural to sort of react with firstly.
09:36.71
Christie Uipi
In. Smooth.
09:48.52
kelliwalkercoaching
Oh my God What's wrong and so many of us right? get imaging of our lower back. We get imaging of our Gi track We see lots of specialists. We go to doctors and there's not this necessarily clear cut. Um, cause you know for this.
09:51.18
Christie Uipi
Yeah.
10:02.77
kelliwalkercoaching
These distressing symptoms or pain or you know whatever the nature of the symptoms are hot burning all those things we describe and I think it's helpful to hear like we're not saying I'm hearing you very clearly say this is not in your head but it is sourced from our brain pain is generated all these uncomfortable.
10:04.76
Christie Uipi
From whom.
10:17.40
Christie Uipi
Ah.
10:21.92
kelliwalkercoaching
Unsettling sensations originate from our brain. Our brain is the producer right of of pain whether it be physical structural or like you said emotional you know and psychological. That's a really um.
10:25.40
Christie Uipi
We.
10:32.25
Christie Uipi
Yeah.
10:36.40
kelliwalkercoaching
When we learn about pain and nursing school like that is a really big piece of pain perception is like the psychological the psychological piece and the emotional piece really impact like what our pain is on a one out of 10 on a scale one out of 10 Yeah.
10:41.98
Christie Uipi
Whoo.
10:49.61
Christie Uipi
Yeah, yeah, and thank you so much for underscoring that brain being source pain being sourced in the brain does not mean that the pain isn't real. It's 100% real you really feel it physically in your body. It is really literally a problem and.
10:54.36
kelliwalkercoaching
It's.
11:01.10
kelliwalkercoaching
Hundred percent real yeah and.
11:09.20
Christie Uipi
To your point like it makes me excited to hear when that type of education is we've woven into Mainstream medicine and again you've got on your own Journey. You know so much more than Mainstream Medicine taught you in nursing school because of your expertise because of your niche I Get excited when I hear that and also I'll add. Like there's a I view there to be a difference and I think we're on the same page here between pain can be exacerbated by anxiety that's true and I think I think even Mainstream Medicine is on board with that like we're we have lots of studies that show fear is a modulating factor for.
11:36.21
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, right right.
11:46.00
kelliwalkercoaching
Pain. Absolutely.
11:46.36
Christie Uipi
Pain experience. So yes, yes, yes, pain ah fear can modulate our experience of pain. But what I think is more and more studies are showing recently and where the push really is now is helping patients understand that fear can excuse me pain can literally be caused by fear. So not just that it's exacerbating. It's it's.
12:02.16
kelliwalkercoaching
I Fear Absolutely oh I've been there with anxiety sensations where I am so convinced that you know name it like oh my God I have lupus I have rheumatoid Arthritis like this is you know like I have been in that cycle where I'm like dip. Nope This is.
12:06.42
Christie Uipi
That's that's the be all in end all right.
12:15.57
Christie Uipi
Um, yeah, yeah, that.
12:21.11
kelliwalkercoaching
Definitely something sinister going on and all the symptoms and sensations I was feeling was from being so tightly wound in that anxiety cycle I mean it produces some really powerful sensations that fear.
12:27.10
Christie Uipi
Yeah.
12:33.13
Christie Uipi
Yeah, absolutely and I'm with you man head Shoulders Knees and toes I felt something everywhere exactly Yeah, we'll find it.
12:39.42
kelliwalkercoaching
Headine You name it, you name it. You know a body part. You don't think you could feel anxious about you know as I've been there. We'll find it. We'll find it. Um, so you you speak like someone that has been there and has.
12:52.40
Christie Uipi
Um.
12:55.80
kelliwalkercoaching
Experiential knowledge of like this chronic pain and anxiety relationship Would you mind sharing a little bit about like your own journey and and you know like maybe what was challenging or what was really powerful for you to learn.
13:07.88
Christie Uipi
Yeah, sure in terms of what was challenging just understanding what was going on was a major challenge like I did not know I was an anxious person for so long which is kind of wild because it's pretty.
13:14.43
kelliwalkercoaching
Who.
13:24.43
kelliwalkercoaching
In hindsight right? Yes, it's it's so baffled by these physical pain and sensations like what could this be never could it be anxiety and it's like hindsight twenty Twenty right yeah
13:24.58
Christie Uipi
Obvious I look back to my childhood like I Yeah, like why what was going on the like I Yes I know yeah right. I mean and I'm sure you can relate it to this too and I'll share a little bit about my journey in a second but but no one told me I mean I I went to lots of special I really tried but it was just not offered. It's it's It's not yet the kind of at the forefront but I was a.
13:45.54
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, no one told me ah yep now.
13:56.39
Christie Uipi
Anxious kid like I remember checking on my little I was probably 10 and I remember checking on my little brother like multiple times at night to make sure he was breathing for example, like that's not necessarily healthy like there were some signs of distress starting really young and then as I was a teenager and going into college my undergraduate experience.
14:03.15
kelliwalkercoaching
Down. Yeah. Yeah.
14:15.25
Christie Uipi
I Just ran very urgent I ran very pressure like put a lot of pressure on myself I held myself to these insane standards I left no time for things like rest or fun or friends. It was just go go go How much can I produce.
14:16.87
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah, yeah.
14:27.43
kelliwalkercoaching
Go go.
14:31.31
Christie Uipi
How well can I do at everything that I do and that I produce and by my senior year of my undergraduate experience. Everything was just kind of coming to a head like I was graduating from college I was living in L a I was wondering can I make it out here should I go to grad school should I get some sort of a job and.
14:40.60
kelliwalkercoaching
Home now. So.
14:49.87
Christie Uipi
I Went to the gym one day probably just wanting to burn off some of that anxious energy honestly and I and I fell I fell into a split and I tore my hamstring and it wasn't really.
15:00.79
kelliwalkercoaching
Ouch, right.
15:02.37
Christie Uipi
A real acute structural injury and I I kind of started down the path of physical therapy and different kinds of healing injections and six months later I was in more pain than I had been the day that I fell yeah, she was like what's going.
15:15.91
kelliwalkercoaching
Initially, Yeah yeah.
15:18.20
Christie Uipi
On here. So they again my medical team was like well let's do more physical therapy and let's do more injections. Super let's do more of what's not working I ah.
15:22.70
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, right? Yeah, let's just throw some more at it. Why not? you know, let's just throw throw it at the wallsey with sticks. Ah.
15:31.43
Christie Uipi
Um, yeah, so did twelve months after my injury. My medical team finally threw their hands up. They like took an ultrasound to my leg and they were like look your muscles have regrown. We are not at this point we're not going to continue with these injections in PT.
15:43.20
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
15:49.14
Christie Uipi
And it was essentially a dead end and I had I was sobbing in their office telling them like I can't because it had gotten worse I'm I'm shortening this but the pain had gotten worse and worse and worse it was impacting my ability to drive I was about to lose my job because I couldn't sit at my desk I couldn't sit I had like had I had a desk Job. And I had to take my own laptop into work and literally lay on the floor in the middle of an office with like coworkers around me because I could not sit stand Walk. So I'm sitting in this office sobbing like I'm.
16:14.18
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
16:25.36
Christie Uipi
What am I supposed to do am I'm at a loss and again it was like medical bills were piling up and how am I ever goingnna be able to go back I Want to go to grad school's like Io What am I supposed to do I'm good after to move home I like just so much stress so much anxiety through this I've so.
16:25.50
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, at a loss.
16:34.80
kelliwalkercoaching
You.
16:42.76
Christie Uipi
Did begin grad school which is looking back. Another insane example of push through at all costs like I needed to just take a pause take a hiatus and I didn't and eventually just through luck and like divine intervention in my. Grad program for my and Msw I met a professor who specializes in the psychological treatment of chronic pain I mean he took 1 look at me and I had like because my pain had spread out over time. It started in my hamstring but by the time I was at this point I had ah knee pain.
17:03.48
kelliwalkercoaching
Wow. And.
17:18.30
Christie Uipi
Pain in both wrists neck pain head pain vertigo. So I literally was I had braces on all like the entirety of my by both knees. My wrists I had a heating patd on my neck and all these medications in my bag and Thisbuster took one look at me and was like whoa.
17:19.46
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? yeah.
17:34.92
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah.
17:35.37
Christie Uipi
I highly doubt I was like 23 24 he was like I highly doubt you have a problem with every single area of your body. That's highly unlikely like here's more likely you have 1 source of all these pain sensations. So long story short e.
17:41.90
kelliwalkercoaching
Of your body.
17:52.38
Christie Uipi
Introduce me to the world of Neuroplastic pain and help me understand the um correlate to my anxiety and once I could see all those things coming together I was like oh my gosh This makes so much sense think so much sense.
18:02.70
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah, and so and it sounds like the pieces kind of started to fall into place after that. Yeah, what a relief I Am It's a lot of work. Yeah.
18:10.18
Christie Uipi
Yes, yeah, and I mean what a relief to let go of my knee doctor who was separate from my hamstring doctor who' separate from my neck my bye. Yes I need a therapist I'm leaving all you guys line.
18:21.99
kelliwalkercoaching
And yeah, yeah to to simplify it right? like to be able to say okay this is coming from 1 source one one support will do the trick here to be able to like let go of all those other pieces which is you know it can be time consuming keeping up with.
18:27.32
Christie Uipi
Well yeah.
18:37.58
Christie Uipi
Yeah, right, right? right.
18:39.12
kelliwalkercoaching
All the appointments and the pt and yeah, absolutely so I have a million dollar question that I know um, ah you are you know, very well versed at answering and it is you know if we're experiencing physical pain in our body. How do we know. Are there any sort of red flags or indications that it's being aggravated by anxiety.
18:58.27
Christie Uipi
Um, yeah, yeah, great question, great question and I do want to name it is important to know the source right? like pain ah way actually 85% of all chronic pain. This is a recent study that came in.
19:09.27
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
19:17.18
Christie Uipi
Came out 85% of all chronic pain is brain based in nature. That's the majority of chronic pain chronic being to defend. Yeah so chances are if you have pain for longer than six months and you don't have a clear diagnosis for it. Chances are this is neuroplastic in nature. But that being said.
19:23.13
kelliwalkercoaching
That's the majority very much. So wow.
19:35.75
Christie Uipi
Having that thorough medical rule out is of course important we don't want to be treating pain and there to be something medical that we're missing So I want to make sure I name that but the the sort of numbers show that most chronic pain is brain based in nature. So some questions I'd want people to ask themselves are are you are you lacking.
19:37.82
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
19:43.93
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
19:55.14
Christie Uipi
Clear diagnosis for your pain. So like me where you just kind of doctor shopping going everywhere that you can probably if you're running anxious. You're probably super motivated. You want to get better. You'll do anything but Pe that your doctors are kind of throwing their hands up, you're going back over and over treatment that don't work. Um.
19:57.89
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah. Right? Yeah yeah.
20:09.83
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
20:12.94
Christie Uipi
Asking Did your pain begin or worsen during a time of stress or transition. Do you have or have you had over your lifespan pain in multiple areas of your body. So again, it's unlikely in the absence of a pathological disease process that there's something wrong with every area of your body at once.
20:15.56
kelliwalkercoaching
Martin.
20:30.48
kelliwalkercoaching
Wrote.
20:32.12
Christie Uipi
So if you have pain that's spreading or moving out over time that indicates brain-based pain if you oh it's whack em. Allle.
20:37.68
kelliwalkercoaching
Jumping around. That's my favorite like for me like that's one of the questions. Yeah, that's one of my questions for myself right? because like a nursing part of it is like recognizing patterns and if I'm feeling sensitized like when I get sick I tend to feel more sensitized.
20:50.81
Christie Uipi
So.
20:52.39
kelliwalkercoaching
Like uncomfortable sensations or pain or whatever it might be and for me, it's sort of like what you're saying has been really helpful is if I check in with myself and I'm like is there like a. Clear Pattern is it jumping around a bit does this feel familiar like do I Even know what I would exactly say to my doctor or is it so vague and inconsistent right? like that's usually my clue that there's and and again I know that I get stressed and I get.
21:08.64
Christie Uipi
Um, yeah, right.
21:19.54
kelliwalkercoaching
Sensitized when when I'm sick and feeling vulnerable like that. So I can totally see how these questions can they' are questions that have been really valuable for me when it comes to like sort of discerning hey do I feel like I need to follow up with my doctor right now on this very first day that I have all these weird whack-a-mole pains or like you know like.
21:22.81
Christie Uipi
Meanwhile.
21:34.49
Christie Uipi
Who.
21:39.60
kelliwalkercoaching
What what's the next step here right? like and and it's been really helpful. Those types of questions. Yeah.
21:44.96
Christie Uipi
Yeah, good good and I appreciate you naming sort of the coming and going nature of pain which often indicates brain involvement because again like ah if you. Something's wrong with your leg. You broke your leg. It doesn't come and go right? like gets broken. It doesn't doesn't feel good.
21:59.75
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? It's yeah, it's a I know a lot of people have like higher anxiety in the morning and like ah like a hallmark sign is like. Symptoms dissipate as the day goes on and cortisol levels decrease and like I know for like if it starts in the morning and like I'm feeling like ready to go jumping on the trampoline come three o'clock four o'clock or I could do anything like that's usually sort of my indicator like okay this is this is being aggravated by or caused by and in my case, a lot of the time caused.
22:11.16
Christie Uipi
And.
22:24.47
Christie Uipi
Yeah, come ons by yeah I love that that time of day. All those inconsistencies the time of day sometimes but people often say my pain goes away when I clock out of work on Friday. It's so weird like you all? yeah.
22:28.69
kelliwalkercoaching
By Fear and anxiety. All those all those inconsistences. Yeah. Yeah, so weird.
22:43.96
Christie Uipi
Although sort of inconsistencies are important but I will name there is there's sort of 2 routes in to experiencing chronic neuroplastic pain 1 is this sort of spontaneous onset. There was never anything wrong. Ah wrong, meaning like physically broken or damaged about that area of your body and that's where you can see like the coming and going.
22:55.88
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? Like an injury. Yeah.
23:01.53
Christie Uipi
And the shifting and the the inconsistencies but you can have the case like with my hamstring pain this the case a ton of my clients. You had an injury or even an illness that right right runs its course and heals. So you're the the acute structural or pathological issue resolves.
23:08.14
kelliwalkercoaching
Absolutely right.
23:19.10
kelliwalkercoaching
The pain is so.
23:19.43
Christie Uipi
But the pain continues so you're going from some sort of acute injury and moving into chronic neuroplastic pain because your brain has locked into those pain pathways and the treatment is the same regardless of how the. Um, pain started Once. It's brain generated then you approach it from that place.
23:35.80
kelliwalkercoaching
From that plate. Yeah and I know there's been a lot of studies regarding like imaging and you know resolution of an acute imagery and how you know it becomes chronic pain once it once it persists pass right? like the healing of of that injury like pass that 6 ix-month mark once we can see. Okay, it's it's physical. Resolve. We can see this with imaging or whatever and um, you know the way you describe neuroplastic paint it almost sounds like it reminds me of like Phantom Lim or something like it seems like it's almost like a memory like it's it's like in and like it becomes an ingrained memory again. Whether or not there's an initial acute.
24:07.45
Christie Uipi
Um, yeah.
24:14.26
kelliwalkercoaching
Injury or just you know, ah a sensation. We get really preoccupied with and and engrossed in. But yeah, it almost sounds like it's like becomes a learned memory.
24:16.82
Christie Uipi
Yeah.
24:23.50
Christie Uipi
Absolutely I Love that example of Phantom limb or sometimes I'll say to people like you're got a song stuck in your head like you hear it on the radio and then the song ends but you keep you keep singing it. It's in your brain all day over and over and over the same thing happens to pay.
24:35.87
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, all that? yeah.
24:42.47
Christie Uipi
An injury can end and song can end injury can resolve but your brain doesn't get the message like that alarm mechanism is still going off and you've developed all these habits fear base and avoidant habits around the pain sensation. Those don't go away. No one told you like this is the day your injury resolved. Let go of I like.
24:47.97
kelliwalkercoaching
Doesn't get a message.
24:53.52
kelliwalkercoaching
Dealing right? like dealing with the pain. Yeah.
25:02.70
Christie Uipi
Um, all of your habits like of all of your fears that that's not happening.
25:04.56
kelliwalkercoaching
Well do you have like any techniques you'd suggest for bringing those of us sort of stuck in this anxiety chronic pain cycle back into our bodies like how can we start to feel safe coming home. This place that we've come to maybe associate with pain and fear. Yes.
25:23.22
Christie Uipi
Yeah, yeah, well I have a feeling that listeners of your show are going to be familiar with this and might just be sort of translating this to pain work or to uncomfortable sensation work. Ah targeting Avoidance is really important like our human reaction.
25:32.57
kelliwalkercoaching
3 Is of our yeah pull back and.
25:40.78
Christie Uipi
To pain and to discomfort in our body is to pull back. Avoid this ignore it run away from it but avoidance actually increases our anxiety level and once we're increasing our anxiety level. We're increasing our pain level. So one of the techniques that I suggest is called somatic tracking where you're actually. Closing your eyes that that's comfortable for you and practicing going towards the sensation of pain or discomfort in your body as opposed to away from it so watching throughout the day. How many times you are prone to wanting to escape the sensation. Ah. It hurts so badly. When is this going to end. Is it going to be better by the time I go on that lunch date. Why is it worse today than it was yesterday really need to book that chiropractor appointment all of those thoughts are ways of trying to avoid and escape the pain and then a lot of our behavior is designed to avoid or escape the pain booking more and more treatments where we sit.
26:17.45
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah.
26:28.30
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, right, the way we sit or hold our body right? like I mean yeah.
26:34.63
Christie Uipi
Yes, modifications that we make different again I had all these different like just carried a butt pillow around grad school for 2 years thinking that I mean that for like make him up. Yeah, right play 2 year old eighty year old the same time. So we.
26:42.24
kelliwalkercoaching
Ah I got my dout I'm 22 but here's Madonna in alley. Yeah I get it. Yeah if it can feel like that 22 going on 80 it feels like that.
26:52.93
Christie Uipi
All that yes, all of that the brain but the thought the way the avoidance can show up in our thoughts the way that avoidance can show up in our behavior taking a look at that and 1 of the simplest ways to tackle that in real time again is to notice the pull towards avoidance. Close your eyes see if you can move your attention to the sensation of pain and spend some time there while affirming to yourself. The sensation feels dangerous, but it's actually not sensation feels like something that I need to move away from and solve and fix. But it's actually not sensation is like a. The sound of a fire alarm but the fire was put out long ago safe now.
27:36.29
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, and is there something if we start to feel in that moment when we're tracking. Um, if we start to feel a little bit overwhelmed is there a place we can kind of come back to or a place we can rest for a moment if we get a little overwhelmed.
27:48.00
Christie Uipi
Yeah, thank you for asking that because that would be normal because if you have that overwhelm experience. That's your body having a natural reaction to pain. What are you doing? Why are you going close to this thing versus move away. So.
27:52.16
kelliwalkercoaching
Yet.
27:58.11
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
28:03.24
Christie Uipi
Thank you for asking. There's a couple different things you can do. First of all, you can open your eyes that often takes the exposure down find some come back into the space around you or find somewhere neutral that you can cast your gaze for a few seconds as you come back into space or.
28:07.91
kelliwalkercoaching
Um.
28:12.63
kelliwalkercoaching
And then.
28:16.35
Christie Uipi
If you're either used to practicing some sort of safe resourcing in your body or want to develop a practice of developing some sort of safe resourcing in your body you can move your attention away from the pain sensation and towards something in your body that feels more neutral or safe like your breath or your feet on the floor or your back.
28:27.27
kelliwalkercoaching
Your resource.
28:35.70
Christie Uipi
On the on the bed If you're laying down somewhere that feels safer and more neutral.
28:37.92
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, oh I usually do my like often. My feet feel like a very neutral place So like me on my like textured carpet or like on the grass or the sand or something that I know for me that's something that is is everybody's a little bit different but.
28:47.88
Christie Uipi
Sound. Yeah, it grounds you.
28:55.10
kelliwalkercoaching
Just as like a personal example. Yeah, it's just like oh right? Okay I'm not just my pain I'm here right now. It's almost yeah, it's a little like comforting and like reminding me I'm here right now. It's a little bit of a little bit of a relief to remember that sometimes.
29:01.42
Christie Uipi
I'm here who.
29:08.59
Christie Uipi
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
29:13.39
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, anything else. You know this has been really enlightening. Thank you for you know, sharing this with us and and I know I've found it really valuable and I'm sure so many others will but is there anything else that you think is important to end with or a last thought you'd want to leave us with.
29:30.76
Christie Uipi
The last thought we is. We've been focused ah today largely on fear as it relates to I call the pain fear cycle. So how does fear start pain and then how does fear perpetuate pain in terms of our response.
29:38.35
kelliwalkercoaching
Yeah, yeah.
29:45.11
Christie Uipi
Have anxious responses anxious thoughts and behaviors as it relates to pain and targeting that pain fear cycle can have a lot of benefit but I will mention there is a lot that goes into um, creating the environment where someone is prone to experiencing chronic anxiety or pain right? and.
29:54.54
kelliwalkercoaching
6
30:01.78
kelliwalkercoaching
Right.
30:03.48
Christie Uipi
Our relationship with fear can be compromised very early on we can have longstanding sort of issues as it relates to fear and having our sense of safety compromise. So yes, there can be tons of benefit to targeting this more. Um, this pain fear cycle or this. Um, anxiety fear cycle. But if you are trying some of those techniques and you're feeling like this isn't having the impact that I've heard others have you might just need some more support and that's very normal having a therapist or coach who's um or I mean there's tons of great resources out there that can help you with some of that more foundational.
30:27.78
kelliwalkercoaching
Right? so.
30:40.83
Christie Uipi
Compromises to your feelings of safety in your bodies and that does not mean you've done something wrong or that the to other techniques can't help you it just might mean that you need a little bit of support on some of the underlying stuff and that's normal. It's okay.
30:49.60
kelliwalkercoaching
A foundation. Yeah yeah, it sounds like sometimes we just need a little I know I have before like needing a little extra support to have that first foothold or at least that like foundational level to be able to kind of incorporate. You know some? ah some of the other things that are really helpful with this fear anxiety cycle. Yeah well thank you so much for um, for being here today and you know sharing what you've learned and the work you now do and I just remind want to remind people that they can find you at bettermindcenter.com.
31:08.23
Christie Uipi
Yeah, yeah.
31:25.86
kelliwalkercoaching
Um, so yeah, thank you so much for today all day I'll day all day all night ah of course.
31:26.85
Christie Uipi
Yes, thank you I feel like we could nerd out on this many times over. So I appreciate it. Thank these the? Yeah thanks. Kelly.
31:40.56
kelliwalkercoaching
That's our episode. Thanks so much for tuning in today if you're enjoying the show please subscribe and take a minute to write a review on ITunes that we can reach and support more people if you're looking for one-on-one coaching or have a question you'd like answered on the show. Please visit notanotheranxietyshow.com and until next time remember be kind to yourself.
